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l'ivrogne transfiguré

Apology

I would like to apologise for what I said in the Revamped thread and the argument that ensued. I have been a bit frustrated by this forum recently and was in a very bad mood that morning. Perhaps I took it out on beyondthebarricade and was unnecessarily harsh. I didn't intend to seem unwelcoming.

However, I would like to raise some issues with the forum in general, which partly contributed to my losing my temper.

1. This forum seems to have become excessively fangirly (David Thaxton being a prime example although it is not directed exclusively at him). While I have absolutely no problem with fangirling in itself, and agree that David is amazing, I think that there is a fine line between acceptable and excessive/inappropriate levels, which I feel a few people on this forum are getting very close to crossing, if they haven't already done so. It's got to the point where almost all intelligent discussions degenerate into rather pointless fangirling. Threads such as the David Thaxton fangirling thread were set up because not everybody wants to read about it, particularly those who don't get to see the London show, and this should be respected. Additionally, even on a forum, the actors should be treated with respect and not just as objects for fangirling. This is, I think, my main problem with going off-topic - I don't mind the deviations so much as the fact that they tend to consist of fangirling, which really does belong somewhere else.

2. There seems to have developed a sort of "Them and Us" attitude on here recently. The "Us" being us 'proper' fans, while everyone else who hasn't seen the show enough times to pick up on all the little subtleties are inferior. This is particularly directed at SuBo fans. While I can understand the resentment against the "SuBo effect", I don't think it is fair to direct this either at her or at the people who come to see Les Mis because of her. It is a credit to Les Mis that she chose one of its songs to perform, and she has caused a significant rise in ticket sales. A true fan of the show should be glad that it is reaching more people - everyone has to get into it somehow. Yes, you get the irritating people who compare it to Susan Boyle and feel it falls short, or are disappointed that she's not in it or whatever. But I am sure the majority of people, having heard her rendition of IDAD, will go to see the show and enjoy it for its own sake. It is unfair to criticise Susan Boyle fans who have not seen the show for not understanding the story or misinterpreting the song - many people on here will also not have known what it was about before going to see the show. If you want to be angry with anyone, direct it at the producers and publicity people who insist on marketing the show with the stupid 'Dream the Dream' tag, and who say that she 'owns' IDAD. The hype around her may be annoying, but neither she nor her fans can really be blamed for it. I have taken the example of Susan Boyle, as it is probably the most widespread - but the same applies, for instance, to those who think that 'the guy in the centre with the red shirt is sexy'. Anything that broadens the show's appeal is surely a good thing?

3. There also seems to be a split between those who have posted on these forums for years, and those who are fairly new, or post irregularly. I have not been here for a very long time, and I respect the opinions of those who have been active in the fandom for many years. However, I think that there can often be a rather patronising attitude from some of these people towards newer members, particularly in terms of acting as moderators, and trying to sort out arguments.

I think these issues can sometimes make MdN an uncomfortable place to post, when it should instead be a fun environment in which to share a common interest in the show. Not only is it rather daunting and perhaps unwelcoming towards newer members, but it may also contribute towards older members leaving or posting less regularly, which would be very sad to see.

In writing this post, I don't want to seem nasty or self-righteous or anything, but just to point out some of my concerns in the hope that we can avoid any future nastiness. None of my comments are directed at anyone in particular, and I know that I can be as guilty of them as anyone else.
Eppie-Sue

Re: Apology

I was and still am planning on not posting anymore, mainly for personal reasons (and because I simply don't want to anymore), but I need to say that first off, I apologise, too, if anyone was offended by my posts or my opinion... l'ivrogne transfiguré has worded it much better and I'll just quote those parts, because I don't trust myself to describe it better at the moment:

(emphasis by me)
l'ivrogne transfiguré wrote:
It's got to the point where almost all intelligent discussions degenerate into rather pointless fangirling.
[...]
Additionally, even on a forum, the actors should be treated with respect and not just as objects for fangirling. This is, I think, my main problem with going off-topic - I don't mind the deviations so much as the fact that they tend to consist of fangirling, which really does belong somewhere else.

and:

l'ivrogne transfiguré wrote:
If you want to be angry with anyone, direct it at the producers and publicity people who insist on marketing the show with the stupid 'Dream the Dream' tag, and who say that she 'owns' IDAD. The hype around her may be annoying, but neither she nor her fans can really be blamed for it.
[...]
However, I think that there can often be a rather patronising attitude from some of these people towards newer members, particularly in terms of acting as moderators, and trying to sort out arguments.


Yes to all of that. Especially the "stop this objectifying fangirling" bit. There is a difference between appreciating a performance based on actual facts, showing interest in acting choices, understanding of the character and the depth and reason behind it, and just blatanly fangirling out of context. And the level of self-adulation on here makes me sad. I don't think many people on here realise how much of an impact their posts can have or how they come across. I'm also sick of all "fangirls" being seen as one giant bunch, as I said, there are different types and kinds. And I'm just so tired of it all.

(edited it because I can't be bothered to make a new post. I just needed to put this up for myself. - and edited for typos.)
HannahM

I agree with pretty much everything that you said, in particular this section:
Quote:
3. There also seems to be a split between those who have posted on these forums for years, and those who are fairly new, or post irregularly. I have not been here for a very long time, and I respect the opinions of those who have been active in the fandom for many years. However, I think that there can often be a rather patronising attitude from some of these people towards newer members, particularly in terms of acting as moderators, and trying to sort out arguments.

I think these issues can sometimes make MdN an uncomfortable place to post, when it should instead be a fun environment in which to share a common interest in the show. Not only is it rather daunting and perhaps unwelcoming towards newer members, but it may also contribute towards older members leaving or posting less regularly, which would be very sad to see.

I don't post here a lot, mainly because its completely terrifying! I understand why people react the way that they do, people can come across as annoying when really they're just eager to fit in and things written on the internet with no indication of tone can be easily misconstrued. Often it seems as if people are deliberately reading things as a personal attack when sometimes its just a misguided comment, though I'm sure that isn't the case. I think another thing that people forget about sometimes is age. Nobody knows how old some of the people posting are and this can have a great effect on the way that people post.

In regards to the fangirling issue, I don't understand the whole fangirling thing so much personally but I think again that a lot of the time it's just an attempt to fit in. People see less extreme fangirling posts in other threads and see this as a way to "fit in with the crowd" so they run with it.

As I said, I don't post often so it may not be my place to say this but I do watch a lot. In many cases, the comments that seem to annoy people the most are comments (or similar ones) that have already been made by some of the older members but greatly... magnified (for want of a better word) and repeated a lot in various forms.

This post may not be grammatically perfect or very eloquent. The points may be obvious. I may be completely wrong. But hey, I tried.
l'ivrogne transfiguré

HannahM wrote:
In regards to the fangirling issue, I don't understand the whole fangirling thing so much personally but I think again that a lot of the time it's just an attempt to fit in. People see less extreme fangirling posts in other threads and see this as a way to "fit in with the crowd" so they run with it.

As I said, I don't post often so it may not be my place to say this but I do watch a lot. In many cases, the comments that seem to annoy people the most are comments (or similar ones) that have already been made by some of the older members but greatly... magnified (for want of a better word) and repeated a lot in various forms.


I think this is very true, and you've expressed it better than I could, so thanks! People who watch more than post will probably have a more objective view point, so it is valuable to hear what you have to say.

And please don't be afraid of us! We're all very nice people - we just get a bit carried away sometimes.
riverdawn

I think part of the thing is that this is essentially a self-moderating forum.

There is no "real" moderator like there is in other fora in the sense of an active user who has the official job of telling users when they are doing something "against the rules" etc.

This is fine 99% of the time, but it does create a situation where new users are sometimes left figuring out what the rules are for themselves - and maybe don't always get them right.

It also creates a situation where older or more frequent users tend to act as moderators and tell other users what they are or are not supposed to do. This makes sense because older users may feel that this is their "home forum" - but it can also mean that it can get very intimidating for new users, or for users who are possibly not as expert in the Les Mis world as some others.

I think if everyone showed a bit of patience, and when a new user did something "wrong" would tell them politely instead of attacking, it would be better.

Also, there is a "private message" function on this forum. If someone does something you think is inappropriate, it is generally more polite and less aggressive to send a private message saying "hey, I don't want to criticize you in public or anything, but the message you just posted in the X thread was totally off topic, and it's better to open a new topic" or "you know, I felt you went a little over the top with the fangirling on this thread, you might want to be a bit more careful".
That way people don't feel like they've been publicly attacked and possibly humiliated, and everyone is happier.

Just my two cents.
Orestes Fasting

Just to pre-emptively prevent any confusion: the forum is moderated, but the mods take a light hand. They are mostly there to prevent gross violations of the rules, like trolling and personal attacks.

So we don't have to self-moderate on serious matters, but we do have to self-moderate on issues of forum etiquette, which is pretty much what this is about.

My two cents on the matter at hand:

The forum is sort of turning into a London fangirling echo chamber. Which is great, I'm glad it's active, and the London production deserves to be fangirled... but as in an echo chamber, things keep going much longer and louder than they would outside, there's not as much "hey guys let's calm down", and the buildup of echoes gets dissociated from any one particular voice.

This means that when things get out of control, it's not much use pointing at one specific person and saying "You, stop doing X." Usually when things get out of hand it's not one specific person making them that way, it's a buildup of multiple people not knowing when to stop. So instead of singling anyone out, it's probably more productive to go "Okay guys, that was fun, but let's [get back on topic now/calm down with the fangirling/not dogpile the n00b]" and make sure you don't contribute to whatever-it-is yourself.
riverdawn

Orestes Fasting wrote:
Just to pre-emptively prevent any confusion: the forum is moderated, but the mods take a light hand. They are mostly there to prevent gross violations of the rules, like trolling and personal attacks.

So we don't have to self-moderate on serious matters, but we do have to self-moderate on issues of forum etiquette, which is pretty much what this is about.



Yes, this if what I meant by "essentially self-regulating". Thanks for clarifying it more accurately, though. Smile
mm10

OK, I’m going to add a few words here. I had no idea there was any sort of problem until I read this thread. I did think it strange that no one had posted on the London Cast Change thread since Thursday and now I realize why. I hope the people who do see the show regularly don’t stop posting their reviews as I love reading them and it is the next best thing to being able to go myself. As long as everyone accepts that different people will have different views and that no one is right or wrong, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion then there shouldn’t be a problem.

I would hate to think that anyone felt they couldn’t or wouldn’t post anymore for whatever reason Crying or Very sad
Quique

So people on this forum tend to annoy us, be it SuBu, Eppie-Sue, me, Orestes, Elbow, Riverdawn, or the friggen n00b. Am I the only one here who has accepted this as a fact of life? lol.

Oooooh, some of you can grate on my NERVES!!! But I get over it once I turn my head away from the screen. And I can't seem to harbor any bad feelings toward anyone. Thank God.

But that's cause, in the end, all of this is PETTY.

I love you all too much and I cherish the show enough that logging in and starting off on a clean slate comes naturally to me. And should I post something that unintentionally irritates the crap out of y'all, then, we're even. XD

Should any of you do the little things that irritate me, so be it.

Self-regulation includes managing the way you interpret things and trying not to allow PETTY things get the best of you.

I support the voicing of concerns, which is why I applaud l'ivrogne for her honest post. I was starting to think I'm the only one around here who doesn't keep silent when something really bothers him. OK, so I go to the other extreme and am like a ranting runaway train. Meh, it's good for my blood pressure.

Anyway, I agree that objectifying is never a good thing, but we all know that isn't the intention and there is more than enough material these 'fangirls' have posted to help us rest assured there is far more depth to their fangirling than the label implies. Sure, it can get over-the-top/annoying/irritating/grating/blahblahblah. Don't worry, you'll get over it.

But I think I will miss it more than it irritated me once it's gone. It brought enthusiasm and life to this forum, and the reason it irritated to begin with was all very...petty.
The Very Angry Woman

Quique wrote:
So people on this forum tend to annoy us, be it SuBu, Eppie-Sue, me, Orestes, Elbow, Riverdawn, or the friggen n00b. Am I the only one here who has accepted this as a fact of life? lol.


Absolutely not.

Also, whatever happened to giving an apology without also wagging a finger as you make a grand exit?
l'ivrogne transfiguré

Quique: I wish I was like you. I really do. Unfortunately I tend to be very irritable and impatient, and this sometimes gets the better of me. And of course I don't want to put an end to the fangirling, especially as I happily participate in it myself. I just sometimes feel a bit uncomfortable with the levels it occasionally reaches.

The Very Angry Woman: I didn't mean to wag a finger, honestly. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and I was just hoping that by voicing my concerns, we could work together to make this a happier place. Also, I am not intending to leave the forum or to stop posting, so this wasn't a grand exit.
beyondthebarricade

This may sound cheesy, but I'll say what I have to:
Firstly let me apologize for spamming the thread which was supposed to be about how the 25th anniversary production of Les Mis differed from the current London one with "OMG DO YOU GET TO SEE THE JUMP IF YOU SIT IN THE BB ROWS". I saw Quique and The Very Angry Woman talking about BB seats, and thought I might just butt in and ask some questions since they were already on the topic. Then flying_pigs replied, and I do admit, I got quite off-topic. I'm not slamming/pointing fingers at them or anything, just recounting what basically happened. I believe what I posted in the Revamped thread triggered (to what extent, I'm not sure) the big argument and subsequently, the need for this "Apology" topic.

I've looked at some of my posts in the past few days and I do realize I sound like a freaking fangirl in some of them. In the David Thaxton Fangirling one, well that's basically what the topic is all about, but I noticed that fangirling of him (as well as some other performers eg. Killian) has reached the London Cast Change topic. I may have dragged my points a little bit and there seems to be no valid explanation, so what I can only do is apologize.

l'ivrogne transfiguré: I didn't mean to piss you off. I think I mentioned this earlier. Anyway, I do have somethings to say about your issues:
2. I see no problem with Susan Boyle fans who use I Dreamed a Dream as a starter to know what Les Mis is all about and I am truly thankful that Boyle has brought in more fans and the show is, what you say "[broadening] the show's appeal". But what annoys me is that they don't know anything about Les Mis but think they do, and they misinterpret/show of the little that they know without bothering to find out what the story is actually about. I mean, liking I Dreamed a Dream is no problem at all, but when you consider yourself a Les Mis fan (to any extent), you have to know more than the show's most famous song. I didn't watch the musical until last month, but I knew the songs since 8 years ago.

Eppie-Sue: Look, I know I angered you before with my "God I'm so jealous you've watched the show so many times and I don't get to see it till June. Let me whine and moan in my self pity" type of comments. Now that I see it, it is annoying, and I'm sorry. I don't know if you'll ever reply to this, but you're probably going to read this. This probably isn't my business, but you're one of the most devoted fans who have the most knowledge/exprience about the whole show, so why are you not posting anymore? Many of us depend on you for the reviews that actually make sense and all that. If you're not going to post anymore because of me, well I'm really sorry. I do hope that isn't the case, if it is, I've already apologized.

mm10: Yes, I do agree with you. We may all have our different views on issues and performers but nonetheless, we enjoy reading views of those who are fortunate enough to attend the show regularly. So please don't stop, although some of us (namely me) may have really irritated you. It's for the good of all the Mizzies and the whole forum!

Quique:
Quique wrote:
I was starting to think I'm the only one around here who doesn't keep silent when something really bothers him.

Probably, because you're the only him around, I think the rest of us here are female Mr. Green
But jokes aside, you're right, we all come to this forum because of our love for Les Mis. So although some of us can get on each other's nerves, we should really put our petty squabbles aside.

All in all, yes, I keep repeating myself, there's bound to be someone who'll yell the hell out of me for being whiny and irritating, but I'm really sorry for whining and stuff. I just looked over my past posts and some of them really make me seem like a biatch. I'll try not to do it again. (I'd better stop here before this reply turns into some moralistic piece of junk.)
flying_pigs

Uh oh, I seem to have been dragged in somehow! Sorry guys Very Happy

I realise a lot of talk is London Les Mis based but it did use to be quite Broadway/US tour based if I'm not mistaken. It just so happens that active users at the moment live in England, furthermore there is not a Broadway/US tour production of Les Mis to discuss so we can't really be blamed for posting about London too much Razz

I hope people still post their reviews from ALL Les Mis productions because I value everyone's Les Mis opinion here! Well, maybe apart from the random people who post once and have a go at us for having an opinion!

At the end of the day (no pun intended), we all love Les Mis so let's put this behind us and start being all fan-girly/boy-y again!

ETA: Don't be afraid to start a new topic for a subject. I remember when I joined (all those years ago) and it's kinda scary! Just make sure you do your research to make sure you're not repeating a topic! If you do not think it warrants it's own topic, ask questions in the Les Mis F.A.Q sticky at the top!
Quique

beyondthebarricade wrote:
Quique:
Quique wrote:
I was starting to think I'm the only one around here who doesn't keep silent when something really bothers him.

Probably, because you're the only him around, I think the rest of us here are female Mr. Green
But jokes aside, you're right, we all come to this forum because of our love for Les Mis. So although some of us can get on each other's nerves, we should really put our petty squabbles aside.

All in all, yes, I keep repeating myself, there's bound to be someone who'll yell the hell out of me for being whiny and irritating, but I'm really sorry for whining and stuff. I just looked over my past posts and some of them really make me seem like a biatch. I'll try not to do it again. (I'd better stop here before this reply turns into some moralistic piece of junk.)


Oooooh yessssssss. Mr. Green We need to recruit some dudes. Twisted Evil

Beyondthebarricade, I don't see where you've been whiny and annoying. You got sucked into a silly drama and it's making you feel it was all your fault. It isn't.

I don't think anyone here needs to apologize for anything, actually. This whole thing got blown out of proportion.

OK, now everyone kiss and make up!!

There...much better. Smile

(Btw, not undermining l'ivrogne's concerns. I think we should be mindful of her post and avoid the things she mentioned.)
beyondthebarricade

Quique: Haha I was laughing non stop about the kiss and make up thing! And yes, I have been preeety annoying, what with the 'OMG I'm jealous I don't live in London' and all. I guess I needed to apologize, but not the going on your knees 'Oh your Majesty I beg for forgiveness' type of thing. And by the way, this isn't related but I would simply live to see you fangirling with other dudes. Yes fangirling.

flying_pigs: I didn't mean to drag you in. Anyway, I love how you're so optimistic and I agree with what you said! Very Happy
KatyRoseLand

I can't even think of anything particularly productive to say, because all I can think is - I love this board and the people on it and I really hope this all blows over soon, and I'm sorry for anything annoying I might have said in the past.

If I think of something more eloquent I will post again but for now I'll just stick with that. I pretty much agree with what everyone else has been saying anyway. Smile
Eponines_Hat

I've been thinking about what to post on here for a while and have decided that there is pretty much nothing I can comment on without causing any more arguments. Which I really don't want to do. A lot of things that have been said have upset a lot of people - my self included. It's a shame because it really makes me want to stop posting because I know that from now on I won't be able to post without worrying "Is this OK? Am I going to be accused of fangirling because I have said more than once that I think Jonathan Williams is a better JVJ than Bowman?" and that someone will jump down my throat for it.

Frankly, I am just sick of the nastiness that seems to pop up far too regularly on here.

All I would like is for people to think about what they say and how they say it to people before they hit that submit button. If you think that you would actually say the same thing word-for-word to somebody's face (and, let's face it, to someone you probably don't really know very well) then, fine. But I suspect that there ends up being a bit of false bravado on here because most of the time all you know about the other person is an online log in.
The Very Angry Woman

beyondthebarricade wrote:
I saw Quique and The Very Angry Woman talking about BB seats


I was?
Elbow

This is all very mad. I didn't realise all these issues existed. I think I will carry on ignoring them. I find that works rather well.
lovesinging

Elbow wrote:
This is all very mad. I didn't realise all these issues existed. I think I will carry on ignoring them. I find that works rather well.


My thoughts exactly!

Though I am sorry if I have annoyed people with my "take pity on me I don't get to see the show at all" type-posts. I guess it's just my way of trying to get you wonderful people to post reviews and such Smile
realitybites

Quote:
But what annoys me is that they don't know anything about Les Mis but think they do, and they misinterpret/show of the little that they know without bothering to find out what the story is actually about. I mean, liking I Dreamed a Dream is no problem at all, but when you consider yourself a Les Mis fan (to any extent), you have to know more than the show's most famous song.


Heehee, actually that's how I feel about most aspects of the touring version! Wink
Fantine

Elbow wrote:
This is all very mad. I didn't realise all these issues existed. I think I will carry on ignoring them. I find that works rather well.
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