Kragey
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Diana Kaarina review...Diana Kaarina is phenomenal as Eponine, the poor and dirty daughter of the Thenardiers who is in love with a wealthy student. Kaarina's performance of the well known ballad "On My Own" put a lump in my throat. Her soprano vocals are crisp, clean, with a soft hint of pop, giving the song youth and energy. What was totally new and fresh was what Kaarina did at the end of her duet with Marius (Stephen Brian Patterson), "A Little Fall of Rain": when she stops singing, she reaches up and kisses him! Marius finally realizes that she loved him; his shock is heartbreaking to watch as he whispers "grow" and holds her dying body. Bravo to both actors for really digging into the subtext of the song.
Realizing I rag on Diana constantly, am I the only person who DIDN'T like what she did at the end of "A Little Fall of Rain"?
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Fantine
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I haven't seen her *officially* live, but I hate and I love it. I hate the kiss at the end of ALFOR because Eponine x Marius cannot and does not exist in that way. It's horrible, fangirlish and so clich�.
I love it because it makes my heart jump when I see it. I get tears in my eyes and feel even more sad. I love it because it's fangirlish and clich�.
So I can only love it when I put the book aside and let the musical lead me.
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The Very Angry Woman
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Actually, don't blame it on Diana. That was added in 1997 as part of the 10th anniversary changes on Broadway.
In the past few years, a few Eponines have opted not to do the kiss, but Diana joined the tour in 1998, when it was still done almost across the board in all countries.
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javertsw
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I think it would be better if she tried to kiss him, and dies before she does.
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Fantine
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| javertsw wrote: | | I think it would be better if she tried to kiss him, and dies before she does. |
Like Shonagh does  It does add a lot to it and it fits perfectly in the portrayal of Eponine.
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LesMisForever
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Hello
I think it would be even better if Marius moves his mouth away.
Fantine explained it quite nicely. Personally, i hate it pretty much for the reasons mentioned by Fantine.
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Meliara
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| Quote: | I think it would be even better if Marius moves his mouth away.
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Oh! Zing! I've never thought of that. That would send a shock wave wouldn't it?
I personally like the kiss; but then again I'm a kissy sort of person. And anyone have video of Stephen Brian Patterson and Diana doing LFOR? PM please!!! Thanks!
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Fantine
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| LesMisForever wrote: | | I think it would be even better if Marius moves his mouth away. |
When Shonagh tries to kiss Hayden, he keeps really still and stiff. He doesn't bend towards her to support her motion, but he sort of lets her try. He doesn't support it. Like, he would grant her the privilege but he wouldn't do anything to take control of the situation and help her. (because he doesn't love her). And thus she only gets halfway and then dies.
I really liked it.
Do you understand what I mean? Expressing myself in English (or Dutch anyway) can be so hard sometimes.
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LesMisForever
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Hello
Yes, i do Fantine  . And realistically speaking that is a better thing to do then moving away from her, because as Meliara suggested that would be too much for the audience without the prior knowledge of the novel.
It just was me voicing a wishful thinking
*****
Talking of the current london cast, what did you think Fantine about Eponine telling Marius: "little you know........" in his face? ( if she is still doing that).
I thought that was extremly wrong. I believe that remark should be self-adressed with self-pity.
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Quique
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Kiss...TVAW is right. The kiss before her death was added in 1997. It did surprise me when I first saw it. I guess you could say the scene is more heart-breaking when she tries to kiss him. Though I find it almost equally as heart-breaking when she does.
It's a nice little addition but one that I really have no strong feelings about.
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Kragey
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| Fantine wrote: | I haven't seen her *officially* live, but I hate and I love it. I hate the kiss at the end of ALFOR because Eponine x Marius cannot and does not exist in that way. It's horrible, fangirlish and so clich�.
I love it because it makes my heart jump when I see it. I get tears in my eyes and feel even more sad. I love it because it's fangirlish and clich�.
So I can only love it when I put the book aside and let the musical lead me. |
My feelings exactly! Although I do prefer it when she tries to kiss him and dies beforehand.
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javertsw
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LesMisForever, I always thought it would be right for Eponine to belt: "Little you know, little you care" into Marius' face but for him to not even notice, as if he isn't paying attention to her after she agrees to take the letter.
So Eponine would be facing Marius, shouting it at him... but he wouldn't even be acknowledging it.
And the 'little you care' line would be a realisation to herself- but still directed at Marius.
I don't like it when people playing Eponine suddenly turn to the audience and do a over dramatic little "Little you know" or whatever the particular line is. The worst example is: "Every word that he says is a dagger in me" (Probaly the line I dislike the most in Les Mis), and the actress really overdoes her face and even imitates pushing a dagger in herself. Its so self-pitying- it drvies me mad!
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LesMisForever
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| javertsw wrote: | LesMisForever, I always thought it would be right for Eponine to belt: "Little you know, little you care" into Marius' face but for him to not even notice, as if he isn't paying attention to her after she agrees to take the letter.
So Eponine would be facing Marius, shouting it at him... but he wouldn't even be acknowledging it.
And the 'little you care' line would be a realisation to herself- but still directed at Marius.
I don't like it when people playing Eponine suddenly turn to the audience and do a over dramatic little "Little you know" or whatever the particular line is. The worst example is: "Every word that he says is a dagger in me" (Probaly the line I dislike the most in Les Mis), and the actress really overdoes her face and even imitates pushing a dagger in herself. Its so self-pitying- it drvies me mad! |
Hello
mmm...I guess on this occassion i disagree with you.
I think Eponine's self-pity is very realistic, and i actually like it.
I think Eponine is extremly hurt in that scene by Marius' request, and she feels great deal of self-pity.
You could argue that she is angry with him, which is also a natural reaction, but i just find the scene so weak, and incomplete with her telling him "little you know", and him not saying a word, and pulling indescribable face (or at least that is how i felt).
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Sairin
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LesMisForever, I hate that Eponine thing.
Fantine, I think that's a recent change...I know she has actually kissed him properly and thought she always did until I read that, I wasn't paying enough attention last time to look though (too busy trying not to laugh).
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Quique
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GRRR!I sense a strong influence by fangirlies everywhere. 
For heaven's sake people, are you going to allow a bunch of fangirlies ruin a very understandable, natural reaction of a character? Considering, especially, that people interpret it as "self-pitying" or "annoying," which is obviously more about fangirlies than the character itself.
How many of you have really been in love, then somehow got hurt in a horrible manner? Trust me, Eponine's reaction of holding her stomach and screaming out that line is perfectly justified.
Can we please get off the "I hate Eponine because of the fan chickies" thing now, please peoples!
GRRRRRR! 
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The Very Angry Woman
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Re: GRRR! | Quique wrote: | | Trust me, Eponine's reaction of holding her stomach and screaming out that line is perfectly justified. |
Any Eponine who holds her stomach is clearly confused as to which character she's playing.
(Oh wait, that's just Joan Almedilla's performance...)
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Quique
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Re: GRRR! | The Very Angry Woman wrote: | | Quique wrote: | | Trust me, Eponine's reaction of holding her stomach and screaming out that line is perfectly justified. |
Any Eponine who holds her stomach is clearly confused as to which character she's playing.
(Oh wait, that's just Joan Almedilla's performance...) |
I've seen Joan as Fantine about 6 times and I must have caught her all on good days, cause I don't recall being disappointed by her performance and that's odd, considering I'm a real critical S.O.B., hehe.
I thought this thing about her being really bad was limited to you but I've since read dozens of different reviews of her, here and there, and they all echo the exact same things you've said. Like the whole unrestrained, over-the-top screaming and rolling about during Fantine's arrest.
Now I'm curious to see her in the role again. Unfortunately, the few recent reviews that have been available, all say the same things as well. 
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The Very Angry Woman
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I have never truly enjoyed Joan's performance as Fantine. And that's too bad, because although she did improve between Sept. 2001 and this summer, that still wasn't saying much. I wanted to like her, especially when she came back, but I couldn't. Although to her credit she had toned down the "TB of the stomach" motions.
I also saw her once in the ensemble of the Jesus Christ Superstar tour, and they unfortunately gave her a very loud, wailing, supposedly "soulful" note (I can't remember which scene offhand), and it was truly, truly awful. It could've been gorgeous in the right hands, but the hands were not hers.
And to think she ended up in Miss Saigon because she had auditioned for Eponine. Yet another disaster that could've been.
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Quique
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Strange...I saw her as Kim, on Broadway, back in 1997. She was obviously at her prime then, cause her voice was incredible.
I do remember coming away and thinking she had an obvious "soulfulness" to her voice; something that wasn't as obvious when I saw her do Fantine in early 2000 and late 2001. Though that's not to say this "soulfulness" worked against her, but I do admit she wasn't even close to some of the stronger Fantines' I'd seen. I do recall her high notes sounding somewhat "limited" or "muffled." It's really hard to describe but I could see how people could dislike her for that.
As for the over-the-top acting, that's one thing I really don't ever recall seeing in her performances but it's everyone's word against mine, I guess (Hmmm, makes it sound as if I'm lying, hehe), as many reviews state otherwise. Strange. Oh well...
I agree that she wouldn't have been right for Eponine.
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Vicam
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I actually didn't care for Joan's performance as Fantine either (just saw her Sept 22nd). She had a pretty voice but something about the performance just didn't do it for me. Now, I haven't seen the show in 4 years, so it's not like I'm a regular, but I did feel like she was overacting to a certain extent...way too much writhing around on the floor and stuff during the arrest, I've never seen it done like that.
I think my favorite Fantine I've ever seen was Susan Gilmour way back in the day
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javertsw
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Re: GRRR! | Quique wrote: | [color=darkblue
Can we please get off the "I hate Eponine because of the fan chickies" thing now, please peoples!
[/color] |
I like Eponine, she's one of my favourite characters. I don't care what Fangirls say.
I just really dislike that line, which makes it even worse when people overplay it.
I'll try and explain.
If you read that line first in the script you could take it straight away as: "I'll shout this line and imitate a dagger because I'm so upset", but that would be the easy, over the top way to play it (I think, anyway). Its as though when actors play over the top, they are taking the easy, more obvious way. Its like when you ask a 10 year old to pretend they are cold they start rubbing their arms and say "Brrrrrrr".
I feel that when Eponine is played in a way which is trying to make the audience feel sorry for her: almost saying to the audience: "Look! I'm really really sad about this!" its such an easy and annoying way to play it. Its also really overdone by now.
I also think that particular line is very over dramatic anyway.
I just think playing Eponine self-pitying, and playing up to the audience is such a 2D way of looking at the role. There is SO much more depth to the character.
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Meliara
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Because she is such a popular character, it becomes cool to hate the character when secretly everyone wants to play Eponine. It's kind of sad that this has happened in a way
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Colle
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Re: GRRR! | javertsw wrote: | | Quique wrote: | [color=darkblue
Can we please get off the "I hate Eponine because of the fan chickies" thing now, please peoples!
[/color] |
I like Eponine, she's one of my favourite characters. I don't care what Fangirls say.
I just really dislike that line, which makes it even worse when people overplay it.
I'll try and explain.
If you read that line first in the script you could take it straight away as: "I'll shout this line and imitate a dagger because I'm so upset", but that would be the easy, over the top way to play it (I think, anyway). Its as though when actors play over the top, they are taking the easy, more obvious way. Its like when you ask a 10 year old to pretend they are cold they start rubbing their arms and say "Brrrrrrr".
I feel that when Eponine is played in a way which is trying to make the audience feel sorry for her: almost saying to the audience: "Look! I'm really really sad about this!" its such an easy and annoying way to play it. Its also really overdone by now.
I also think that particular line is very over dramatic anyway.
I just think playing Eponine self-pitying, and playing up to the audience is such a 2D way of looking at the role. There is SO much more depth to the character. |
With that in mind, how do you think that line should be approached? It is still in the script so she has to sing it, so is there away to sing that line so that it isn't overdramatic?
About the kiss, I have never seen an Eponine kiss Marius and I have only seen the U.S. tour after the 10 Anniversary changes. I believe I prefer for the kiss not to happen, just like the book, because I think it is more heartbreaking that the only time Eponine gets any kind of kiss from Marius is after she dies. I think Eponine trying but not making the kiss would work just as well though.
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javertsw
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The way I imagine that line to happen I find it hard to describe.
The best way I can try and describe it is imagining that someone is being completely honest about something... and they don't need to shout it. I'd have her sing the line quite quietly- with a sort've smile on her face as if she is laughing at herself. I know that sounds wrong... but I can't really describe it.
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Quique
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Heehee! | javertsw wrote: | The way I imagine that line to happen I find it hard to describe.
The best way I can try and describe it is imagining that someone is being completely honest about something... and they don't need to shout it. I'd have her sing the line quite quietly- with a sort've smile on her face as if she is laughing at herself. I know that sounds wrong... but I can't really describe it. |
Sounds like you're describing Diana Kaarina, heehee.
Just messing with you. 
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javertim
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The reason that I cannot stand the kiss is that it redeems Eponine's character to an extent. You cannot do that with what is essentially a "tragic character." Yes, people are going to want her to feel at ease, but her death is not the time to give them this sense of, "oh, see, everything's all right with her." Eponine comes back as an Angel (of sorts) at the end, so I think that's all we need -- We clearly see that she is eternally happy, so what more is there to want?
I say let her die in pity and pain and absolutely nothing more. It has so much more impact. Heck, I sometimes feel let down when the kiss is even attempted.
Want absolute perfection as far as ALFOR goes? Look no further than the amazing Ma-Anne Dionisio. What an Eponine she is/was.
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javertsw
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Re: Heehee! | Quique wrote: |
Sounds like you're describing Diana Kaarina, heehee.
Just messing with you. |
Don't worry. I've never seen her anyway, so I wouldn't have felt terribly offended!
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Fantine
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| javertim wrote: | The reason that I cannot stand the kiss is that it redeems Eponine's character to an extent. You cannot do that with what is essentially a "tragic character." Yes, people are going to want her to feel at ease, but her death is not the time to give them this sense of, "oh, see, everything's all right with her." Eponine comes back as an Angel (of sorts) at the end, so I think that's all we need -- We clearly see that she is eternally happy, so what more is there to want?
I say let her die in pity and pain and absolutely nothing more. It has so much more impact. Heck, I sometimes feel let down when the kiss is even attempted.
Want absolute perfection as far as ALFOR goes? Look no further than the amazing Ma-Anne Dionisio. What an Eponine she is/was. |
I do agree with you. That does leave more impact.
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NotoriousFunnt
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Hmm, I remember seeing the kiss on Broadway...it was okay, in my eyes, but for one thing I'm such a sucker for tragedy, and I'd much prefer just like the book, when Marius kisses her on the forehead after she dies. I thought that was much more tragic and beautiful, and Eponine actually kissing him in the show was just too romancey, especially when she is dying. Sometimes I am in favor of it but it depends on the mood.
Imitating a dagger in that one line? Sorry, that's just cheesy no matter which way you cut it. I hope I never have to see that because...*wince* melodramatic much.
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The Very Angry Woman
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The only Eponine I've ever seen do the dagger motion was a less-than mediocre understudy on the tour five years ago named Sarah Ramsey-Duke. (Unfortunately, I also had to see her twice.)
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Sairin
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Shonagh Daly does it at the moment, as did I think Gemma Wardle...glad to hear it's not as widely used as I thought it was.
It's such a melodramatic line lyrically, it really has enough power behind it without the whole stomach plunge thing, which is why I think you really need understatement in terms of actions. Otherwise it just gets silly.
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LesMisForever
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Hello
I actually like this line. I never really paid attention to the actress' action when they say this line.
I do agree with what Alanna said though.
As for melodrama, well, i think this is one of the major weakness of the novel. It is an overly melodramatic story.
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Annaliese
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| Meliara wrote: | | Because she is such a popular character, it becomes cool to hate the character when secretly everyone wants to play Eponine. |
You're cool
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Fantine
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Gemma did too.
But from what I remember from the novel, Eponine is a bit of a melodramatic character, isn't she?
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Annaliese
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In my opinion she was melodramatic when threatening people (like when she stood up to Thenardier's Gang) but when it came to love, I think she was way more understated. The first time she mentions loving Marius is right before she dies- "And do you know, Monsieur Marius, I think I was a little in love with you." A LITTLE. Yeah, she was crazy in the novel, but not too melodramatic.
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javertsw
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I agree.
She doesn't actually say she loves Marius until when she dies. (In the musical she doesn't say it till 'On My Own').
Partly the reason why I hate that line being overdramatic, is that 'On My Own' should be the moment when all of Eponine's anger, emotion, despair etc comes out. As if everything else in the musical is building to this. That's also why I hate it when you get people overbelting the lines in 'One Day More'.
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