Does Javert tell the truth about the second convict?

ChrisDenman · Does Javert tell the truth about the second convict?

"But he couldn't run forever
We have found his hideaway
And he's just been re-arrested
And he comes to court today.
Of course he now denies it
You'd expect that of a con
But he couldn't run forever,
No, not even Jean Valjean!"

Here, Javert tells Mr. Madeliene (Valjean as the Mayor) about the second convict that he has found- the convict that places Valjean in this moral dilemma when he thinks he would condemn the other man, and introduces the song "Who Am I?".

However, I am not sure at all there is a second man.

When Valjean says Javert could be wrong ("can you be sure that I am not your man?"), Javert responds with:

I have known the thief for ages
Tracked him down
through thick and thin
And to make the matter certain
There's the brand upon his skin

This is what makes me think Javert is merely inventing the second man to place Valjean in a position where he feels he must be "condemned or be damned". How can there be two people with exactly the same brand? Apart from that, it's too much of a coincidence.

Now, every synposis I have read suggests there is a "second man" and that Javert is telling the truth. But I'm not so sure. I think it's just a trick to appeal to Valjean's moral guilt.

Also I think there's a second aspect - Javert intended for it to appeal to Valjean's hubris. See, a key part of Who Am I is a hubristic way of saying "Ha, you think you're so confident Javert, well you GOT IT WRONG!!!! which you can tell Valjean is just dying to say to him. If you listen to almost all the productions, the way he says "This man bears no more guilt than YOU!", it's like he's completely taken the "bait" to tell Javert he's imperfect, and I think this was Javert's idea, his cunning plan to get him to confess.

Obviously all this is quite the opposite from the "expected" interpretation... but does anyone by chance agree with me here? Smile

Chris

Fantine

There IS another man they arrested. He is there in the musical and he is there in the book. The proper question is whether Javert is trying to trap Valjean (because he suspects that Le Mayor is Valjean), or if he really believes that that man he's caught is Jean Valjean.

I've always believed it was the former.

lesmisloony

I was going to whip out the eBrick on you suckas, but having my computer wiped of viruses (and everything else) recently means I lost all my bookmarks, so I don't know where the eBrick is... Sad

I don't think Javert suspected Madeleine at all. Just going on memory, he was "disheveled" when he went to get Madeleine from Fantine's room, which was a mortifying sign of... evilcrazy excitement? I took that as proof that he was freaking out inside upon hearing the news that Madeleine had crashed the trial.

lizavert

Like Fantine said, there is another man. In the musical there is something of a case to be made that Javert has laid a trap for Valjean. In the book however, things are very different.

In the book, Javert denounces the Mayor out of, basically, spite. Then he finds out that apparently he is wrong. Javert then goes to the mayor and asks to be fired. But, he believes that the man who was caught is Jean Valjean.

In the musical, Javert may be laying a trap (although I've never seen it that way.) And in at least one of the movie versions, Javert does exactly that.

Fantine

Mainly from the TAC I always got the impression that Javert suspected Madeleine. That look that PQ gives CW...

Vanessa20 · My two cents

Personally, I've never thought that Javert was laying a trap for Valjean in the musical. I've always assumed that at first he has no doubt that the other man was Valjean, but then, when he sees M. Madeleine lift the cart, he becomes suspicious. But he can't say what he's thinking because Madeleine is the mayor. So his going on and on about "Valjean" is presumably either either his attempt to trap him, or an attempt to cover up his suspicions, or even an attempt to convince himself that his suspicions are wrong, depending on the actor or the director's interpretation.

Of course, the whole thing feels too coincidental if Valjean is branded with his number, like he was before the 1997 revisions. That's probably why they changed the brand to a plain rectangle. That way it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the other man is also an ex-con and has an identical brand.

I have considered the idea of Javert laying a trap for Valjean, but it's always felt like a bit of a stretch to me. If he sees Valjean as a criminal who can never change, why would he assume that he would ever confess? Unless, as you said, he did it out of hubris. But even then, isn't going back to prison an enormous price to pay for the momentary pleasure of proving Javert wrong, and wouldn't Javert realize that?

lesmisloony

bigR

It's not up for interpretation, guys!
There IS another prisoner and Javert thinks that this second prisoner is Valjean.
In the brick, Javert suspects Madelaine after the cart episode (he's been suspecting him for a while but the cart thing confirms his doubts) and denounces him, but the moment his superior tells him that the true Valjean is already arrested he doesn't doubt anymore. When tells Madelaine about the "other man" (Champmathieu) he is completely sure that that other man is Valjean and he was mistaken. Actually he is so ashamed of his early suspictions and behaviour and feels so guilty that he asks Madelaine to fire him.
Moreover, during the trial Javert is called to the court as a witness and he is confronted with Champmathieu. And even there, the men are so similar that he honestly says to the court that he recongnizes the man and he is Jean Valjean.
Of course, a situation that in the brick develops during several days, had to be compressed into a few lines in the musical. That's why Javert's cart suspictions are inmediately followed by his telling Madelaine that they have arrested Valjean. But his "forgive me sir, I would not dear!" makes quite clear that he thinks that even to tell the major that he reminds him of a criminal would be an offense!
And of course, at the end of Who Am I? you can see Champmathieu kneeling at the Court and Valjean raising him so, of course he exist!

lesmisloony

^ Ah, thankee.

Geez, I should read the Book again. It's about that time of year.

(I like that I remember the random detail of Javert's crooked buckle and not major plot developments...)

mastachen

On the contrary, I think the lyrics in the musical can be construed as a trap, although I don't think the lyricist did that intently. I think it would be interesting to see Javert playing it off like a trap.

Sythar

While it may be an interesting premise for a fanfiction or a caracter-based 'what-if' debate, I don't think there's any room for doubt here.
Firstly - Brick-wise it should be remembered that Javert is painfully honest.
If we're talking the Brick, then it's very clear that there was another prisoner and Javert did mistake him for Valjean (as evidenced by his written testimony that is read out at the trial).
In the musical, there is another prisoner at the dock, remember Valjean sings 'And so Javert you see it's true/ this man bears no more guilt than you...' So Javert was not only at the trial (presumably giving evidence) but so is the other convict. If we presume logically that the lyricist is trying to reference the continuity of the Brick in what has to be a much shorter scene (sans Valjean's toing and froing, dream, carriage ride, and hair turning white) then I think we can safely draw the conclusion that Champmathieu does exist in the MusicalVerse.

It is an interesting theory though. I believe I made a note in my copy of the Brick... *goes to check* Ah yes. At 'They said I was mad' I wrote 'One interpretation is that he is playing a game with Valjean to see his reaction' This was due to the way he worded his replies. It sounded as though it were possible Javert didn't believe that Champmathieu was Valjean, but his superiors weren't listening to him - so he was trying to get a reaction from Valjean.
There are several problems with this idea, however. One would have to completely disregard the happenings of the chapters following - where Javert gives testimony at a trial, acts startled and triumphant upon discovering that Madeleine confessed, and his subsequent excitement and ferocity upon arresting Valjean at Fantine's deathbed.

*makes mental note to write AU about this someday*

lesmisloony

Brunnhilde

And add to it that Javvie never lies. He could marry Sister Simplice.

*imagines them*
*dies*

Okay, maybe he lied once when he said he'll wait for Valjean and he didn't. Laughing

mastachen

Brunnhilde

He looked out of the window and was like: "WTF where is he?" Laughing

No, he didn't look for him in the musical, and that is sooo OOC. Like his book reaction. Crying or Very sad

Sythar

lesmisloony

Sythar, I actually decided to take that Valjean-reacting-to-Javert's-death fic of yours as canon, for the record.

And I hate that Javert as well. He's absolutely awful. As most movie Javerts tend to be...

what_the_heck013

I don't plan to read all the posts, but what you have to understand about the character of Javert is that he is really just doing his job. He's a good Christian man, and I do not think he would lie.

Now you'll probably say "BUT HE KILLED HIMSELF" A good Christian man wouldn't kill himself! And to that I say, nobody's perfect.

Fantine

But what about Philip Quast's look on the TAC? Okay, it's still the TAC and probably not at all trustworthy and that he's just being sexy, but...

lesmisloony

EponineMNFF

*Avoids the snark completely*

*Thinks that Javert/Sister Simplice is hilarious.*

That's about all I have to say in this thread. Hehehhehe.

Orestes Fasting

Quique

Sythar

lesmisloony

*sigh*
Alright, the second thing I said was uncalled for. But I still stand by the first one.

Sythar: I can kind of see him as a Chauvelin, though...

Sythar

Oh... I don't know... my heart belongs to Ian McKellen and Martin Shaw. (Or Terrence Mann if we're going by the musical. *glee*) Still, I guess he'd have been a very passable Chauvelin.

What did you think of Valjean's friend with the completely unFrench name?

And the 'Rose' symbolism?

mastachen

I saw a video bootleg of Terrence Mann as Javert.

He left me quite speechless. I really have no idea what to make of it.

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Does Javert tell the truth about the second convict?

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