Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| Fantine |
Eponine & MontparnasseWhat kind of relationship have they according to you?(I'm sure this has been discussed before but I am doing some research). Do you think they might have been "lovers" once? Have they slept together? What kind of horrible things do you think they have done to one another? Other thoughts, suggestions? |
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| Mademoiselle Lanoire |
I think it's likely that they were sleeping together. Of course, Hugo isn't specific on exactly what they wandered away to do, so it's not absolutely certain... | ||||
| Fantine |
Yeah I think that they slept together as well. Well, maybe "had sex" is a better word for it. I don't think it was in any way romantic. Maybe after they had one too many or by force from Montparnasse. They were two miserables after all. Maybe they sought "comfort" in one each other when things became rough.
I think it was kind of a love-hate relationship. Teasing&fun (in a freakish way) on one side and hate/angst on the other. |
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| dcrowley |
I always thought that Thenardier sort of "sells" Eponine. I always thought that he gave 'Parnasse rights to his daughter(s) in exchange for helping him in his gang. |
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| Fantine |
I think that too. But I think that the attraction between Eponine and 'Parnasse is there even without Th�nardier selling her. What do you think? | ||||
| herkind |
...and we've stumbled upon my Les Mis OTP. What, obscure, dysfunctional relationships don't appeal to you too? I just think the dynamic between these two is interesting based on what Hugo didn't give us.
Hugo definitely implies that they had sex in the "Montparnasse had in fact encountered Eponine..." bit and Thenardier had nothing to do with it. They were actually supposed to be helping him with the robbery. Their exchange in the attack on rue plumet also hints at familiarity and even camraderie as they tease each other. They may have bonded over the fact that they're close in age and are in similar social situations but the relationship is probably abusive at least from Montparnasse's side because he leaves Eponine to be arrested after the Gorbeau robbery and threatens her in the attack on rue plumet. What I find the most interesting is why Montparnasse would waste his time with Eponine when he probably wouldn't have a problem finding another more attractive grisette to go to and how the relationship changed when Eponine starts showing more interest in Marius. Perhaps Montparnasse's abusive qualities lead Eponine to idealize Marius even more than she already does as the antithesis of everything she hates about her life. |
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| mastachen |
Shady stuff. I wonder how many 15 year old girls after reading this thinks that they're like Eponine now. | ||||
| herkind |
I actually stumbled across an Eponine fansite a long time ago that said Montparnasse was like a brother to Eponine and was the only person that was ever nice to her. Which made me snicker. I love how fangirls invent subtext in some places and completely ignore it in others. | ||||
| Fantine |
Eponine x Montparnasse is one of my favourite (if not my favourite) pairing too. They are so dimensional and it is lovely to write about them, because there is so much you can do.
Thank you for your info herkind, that is how I see it too. Do you think they might have actually been in some sort of "true" relationship (hanging a bit on the abusive side though) before Marius came into sight? |
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| Orestes Fasting |
I think Montparnasse just fancies himself a ladies' man, tried his luck with Eponine, and managed to lead her off for a tryst while they were supposed to be standing guard. Little did he know she was thinking of some other pretty dark-haired boy the whole time.
Remember that in the book, Th�nardier's connection to Patron-Minette was much more tenuous, and although he had a long history of skullduggery he was on the fringes of the world of organized crime. I really doubt he was selling Eponine outright to any of the gang members; why waste the effort on people who have to rob for their living, when he could be sending her off to beg money off rich people? (With the understanding that the 'begging' might occasionally be done on her back rather than on her feet.) Eponine being constantly abused and whored out and beaten is starting to become almost as tiresome to me as Eponine the Pure and Virtuous Heroine. It's as if her life didn't suck enough as it was and people feel the need to tack on more gratuitous misery. |
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| Fantine |
Well perhaps. I'm thinking that before Marius came around, she could very well even have been happy with Parnasse. | ||||
| Colle |
No matter how their relationship started/reasons, or the level of abuse, I don't think Eponine was ever totally happy with Parnasse. It wouldn't make sense to me for her to fall for Marius if she was. I agree that part of the appeal of Marius, to Eponine, is that while not perfect, Marius was a saint compared to the other men in her life. There are enough hints in the book to lead me to believe that Eponine was abused in various ways by her father and likely by Parnasse, although the level of abuse is debatable. | ||||
| herkind |
That's what I meant when I said abusive which probably wasn't the best word for it. Montparnasse wasn't really gratuitously violent (though his definition of gratuitous violence may differ slightly from ours) at least toward women because he liked to behave like a gentleman. He wouldn't hit Eponine for no reason but I said abusive in the sense that while he was interested enough to lead her off for a tryst he wasn't interested enough to help her escape the cops the next day. It wasn't a relationship since Montparnasse didn't care about anyone other than himself and Eponine only cared about herself and her fantasy relationship with Marius but the dynamic is there and I find it more interesting than Eponine's exchanges with Marius.
I think Thenardier's behavior toward Eponine is similar. It's not that he's continually abusive it's just that he doesn't care about her at all. If she's there she might as well be used to make money by whatever means possible if not than it was a load off his mind. In your last comment, Orestes, I'm assuming you're referring to fanfic. I think people just heap on the misery to avoid making her a Sue. It's hard to write Eponine without people crying "Sue" especially since it requires more understanding of the novel and creativity than 75% of the Les Mis fic writers possess. I agree, though, Sue or hapless victim is boring either way. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Yes, I was indeed referring to fanfic.  Misery Sues are just as annoying as Perfect Sues.
Agree with the rest of what you said, too. More neglect than outright abuse. |
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| Colle |
Of course it is probably an exaggeration to say that Eponine was constantly abused by anyone. Still any amount of neglect or abuse shouldn't be belittled, but I don't think either of you, Orestes Fasting and Herkind, were trying to do that or mean to. What I think you were saying, is that you don't see Eponine as a victim, at least as much as some people make her out to be. The way I see it, I think Eponine is a victim in the sense that people have done bad things to her or mistreated her. She is not a victim in the way she reacts. Eponine is strong, she does stand up her father and the gang. Also, I think she tries her best to improve her situation though it is not easy, Eponine has to battle things inside herself and things out of her control.
As for Eponine and Parnasse, I don't like their relationship. I am into relationships that are more loving and fuctional. I am strange that way. I wanted to add that the reasons I think Eponine was outright abused, at least by her father, is because of the hints to her being beat up; like her and her sister lying about losing some letters because they didn't want to be beaten. Plus, I think abuse explains, in part, some of Eponine's more distirbing behaviors like her sucidial thoughts. |
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| herkind |
Yes, Eponine's father did hit her but wasn't uncommon for parents from that time period. Of course it sounds horrible to a modern audience (because it is) but like Orestes said Hugo painted Thenardier as more of an apathetic, neglective parent than overly abusive.
I don't think anyone's trying to belittle the abuse that Eponine dealt with but Hugo didn't focus exclusively on the horrible aspects of her life because that gets really old really fast. He made her resourceful, manipulative, street smart and sometimes whimsical to show the readers glimpses of the person she might have been had her life turned out differently. It makes her situation more poignant. "Misery Sues" make Eponine a literary punching bag and do nothing for her character. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
On the contrary, I was trying to say that painting Eponine's life as an unending string of gratuitously horrible abuse cheapens what she actually did have to undergo. Neglect, poverty, hunger, occasional homelessness, parents with twisted morals, having to be complicit in criminal activity just to be able to eat, loss of innocence at such a young age--I do think that in the book, Eponine was first and foremost meant to be an object of pity. What annoys me is when fanfiction authors decide that's somehow not enough, and depict her being beaten every night, brutally raped by Montparnasse before she even hits her teens, or even running away and being tracked down by Th�nardier so he can punish her. What the hell? If she bolted he'd probably weigh the disadvantage of losing an accomplice vs. the advantage of one less mouth to feed, and not bother to find her unless he needed her for something. Memo to all fanfiction authors: if you need a punching bag, Fantine was in the first volume. |
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| Fantine |
I'm wondering what you think about my novel based fanfic then. It has some abuse but not too much I think... Well I would like your opinion since it has some abusive stuff with Montparnasse in it.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2094469/1/Behold_the_night_falls Please note that English is not my native language. I am kind of generally shy of posting my work everywhere but this seems appropriate now. I would also be a better writer if I wrote in my native tongue but well, hardly any public then. |
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| lesmisloony |
Ohh yeah. My favourite topic. And seeing how I recognize two of you as ff.net-ers just from the ten minutes I've been on this board, you might have seen some of my Montparnasse-related junk floating around.
Here are my thoughts on Parnasse and Eponine.
How about this one: "Montparnasse... may have been especially beholden to Thenardier, perhaps being his unofficial son-in-law..."
I don't know how much I can add to the topic now that this has been said. I always fanwank that he has some feeling for her, acknowledged or otherwise. In fact, I wrote a lengthy fanfic on the matter some years ago... *shakes head* I better stop myself before I give a speech worthy of R. But honestly... there's definitely something fishy in all this, and Hugo clearly meant it that way. |