'Ponine's wiki page

Fantine · 'Ponine's wiki page

So yeah I was reading through it and I was surprised because it seemed to be a faithful story about Eponine's life. But then, I read the last few sentences about her motivations during her final moments on the barricade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponine

'A common debate among readers is �ponine�s motive for saving Marius� life. Some readers state that though �ponine wished for Marius� death, she still took the bullet for him selflessly. To further prove this, readers bring up Cosette�s letter that she gave to Marius despite her feelings for him. Others interpret �ponine�s action as an act of selfishness. Some readers believe that �ponine only took the bullet because she wanted to die first. These same readers go on to say that she only gave Marius the letter so she would be forgiven, not out of her own selflessness. These readers are on crack.'

Excuse me? Someone edit that please!

Pannic

Edited out

herkind

I actually agree with that on some level. Up until that point, Marius had no idea that Eponine was keeping a letter. If Eponine had truly wanted her death to be about just her and Marius she could've kept her secret and Marius would have never known. (Unless Cosette later said, "Hey did you get my letter?") She made a choice to give Marius the letter and presented the opportunity to go galivanting after Cosette at the next available opportunity. It doesn't excuse or erase the selfishness of her previous actions and I don't even think it meant she didn't want Marius to die but it was more of her "letting him go." I think it showed that she was in a good place as she died.

Though, obviously, the on crack part was unnescessary (and amusing.)

Eponine93

I just feel the need to add I love how Wikipedia has pages upon pages on fictional characters as if they're real, especially the Harry Potter characters. I find that endlessly amusing.

Fantine

Well I am one of the people on crack, apparently.

Colle

I agree with herkind, I think Eponine gave Marius the letter as her way of asking for forgiveness and trying to make up for what she did as much as possible. The reason I believe Eponine wanted to die first was, at least in part, because she was feeling guilt.

Orestes Fasting

Quique

Someone should go edit that out. Fantine? Orestes? Anyone? Twisted Evil

Pannic

The Pirate King

herkind

Orestes Fasting

I am totally threadjacking here to spew random thoughts about Marius/Eponine, just to warn you...

...but it's interesting to note the prevalence of Marius/Eponine shippers, given how much their dynamic and interactions depend on the assumption that she can never have him. Think about it. Even in her sad, half-mad, jealous state of mind, Eponine never actually tried to win Marius for herself, or present herself as a rival to Cosette, even though that's how half the fandom seems to see them. If Eponine had thought of Cosette as a rival, it would have been child's play to tell Patron-Minette, "Tonight's not a good night, they're home now, come back tomorrow," and then divert Marius the next night instead of risking her life to drive them away entirely. But no. She didn't drag him to his death thinking "Now I'll have him!" or even "Now Cosette won't have him!" It was "No one shall have him," because she didn't even consider herself as a possibility. And she's probably right; Marius seemed to barely even realize she was a girl until she confessed her love to him.

So yeah. It's funny that there are all these fans who treat Eponine and Cosette as romantic rivals, when in the book it wasn't even really a love triangle. I don't think Hugo intended for anyone to wish Eponine could have had Marius, just sympathize or maybe feel sorry for her because she was so madly in love with someone who was so clearly unattainable. It was never a possibility, and that's what makes it tragic.

Quique

I really hate the idea by fans that the two are rivals as well. Like you stated, it was never intended to be that way, not even in the musical. OK, maybe the creative team twisted Eponine's character around and neglected Cosette's in the hopes of attracting hordes of Eponine fans to the show, lol. Who knows? Wink

Eponine93

Orestes Fasting

Well, yeah, but I think there's a big difference between the shippers who think their pair would be awesome together but know that the canon evidence is slim, and the shippers who are convinced their pair is canon/will be canon/should have been canon. I think that, at heart, most Marius/Eponine shippers fall into the latter camp. Yes, everyone knows that Marius ended up with Cosette, but most M/E fans have this sense of entitlement, like Eponine deserved Marius' affection somehow.

I'm not surprised, really. Most fans' perceptions are shaped by the musical, and the musical definitely sets Cosette and Eponine up as rivals. So, not surprised, just observing a difference in perception.

herkind

I think a lot of Marius/Eponine shippers project themselves onto Eponine which is where the entitlement aspect comes from. To me it always seems like "Eponine totally deserves Marius!11!" is a thin veil for "I totally deserve that cute guy in my homeroom."

I don't think the musical sets Eponine and Cosette up as rivals as much as they get the audience to like Eponine so Cosette is viewed as the "other girl."

Personally, I find the Marius/Eponine dynamic interesting in the way Eponine objectifies and idealizes him as the antithesis of everything she hates about her life. She knows he doesn't love her but is terrified to walk away because it would be admitting to herself she is unlovable and has no real future.

Kragey

I read LM a lot, because it's going to be one of my specializations when I go for my Ph.D, but really..."on crack?"

And if you ask me, ugly/crazy/gritty/pestering novel Eponine is 10x more realistic and interesting than pretty/whiny/obnoxious musical Eponine. I'll pay somebody $10 to sing "On My Own," with Eponine's voice as described in the novel.

I could go on and on about my theories on the Marius letter, but I'm reaaaaaally tired, so they'd make less sense than usual. XD

Colle

About the shippers, I think it does have to do with a feeling that it was an injustice that Eponine didn't end up with Marius. I am an Eponine fan, but I have never gotten into Eponine and Marius shippiness, like have gotten into Sonic and Sally shippiness in the "Sonic the Hedgehog" Archie comic. I believe it is because, since I like to think that Eponine was redeemed in the end, that it is not really an injustice. Plus, the outcome of this was decided years before I was even born.

Monsieur D'Arque

Kragey

Monsieur D'Arque

Whiny Eponine will be conducting a press conference via podcast this weekend. See the new post on this forum's page for more information on how you can get your questions or comments to Eponine read and answered on the air.

Fantine

Her biography on the Eponine Fanlisting bothers me. It's like the creator of that FL has never read the novel... It irritates me:

"Eponine Th�nardier is a very well-loved figure in the Les Mis�rables musical and novel. In the musical, her age is unknown, but she's 16 in the book. In the book, she has two siblings named Azelma and Gavroche. As a young girl, Eponine was spoiled by her parents, Madame and Monsieur Th�nardier, who owned an inn. Her parents treated little Cosette, who worked for them, practically like a slave. They always compared her to their lovely little Eponine. But unfortunately for Eponine, the tables are about to turn. In the second act, things are different. The Th�nardiers have lost their inn, and the family has to rely on Monsieur Th�nardier's gang of thieves (which Eponine is part of ) for money. Now Eponine is the one who is poor and dressed in ragged clothes while Cosette is living a comfortable and nice life. Eponine is completely in love with a student named Marius Pontmercy, but he doesn't know this and in his eyes they are just friends. Sadly for Eponine, Marius actually falls in love with Cosette instead which causes Eponine to be really jealous of Cosette. When Marius is preparing at the barricade, Eponine disguises as a boy and sneaks in. He asks her to deliver a letter to Cosette, and on the way back to him she is shot. She dies in his arms."

herkind

So many people read the book with fangirl-tinted glasses. You have no idea how many cracked out ideas have followed "If you read the book..."

For instance check out the comments on this video I posted on Youtube mainly the one by firebowser1-
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MrtJd7v1pF4

I am much more gratified by my subsequent pwnage than I probably should be. Wink

Fantine

Funny that.
Seeing this reminds me of how ugly I thought Marius was.

Colle

About the youtube video, the Eponine's death clip from the 2000 mini-series, I am hoping the poster of the video got the summary of what Marius and Eponine are saying right. I have this on DVD, and it doesn't have subtitles, but the summary pretty much matches what I reason they are saying. Asia I think is the best, most book like Eponine I have seen on film(except for probably being too pretty). Granted, the only other film Eponine I have seen was Frances Drake, in the 1935 American version.

Fantine

The poster of that vid was herkind, actually.

herkind

Yeah it was me and I hope I got the summary stuff right. I'm not fluent in French but I usually understand enough to piece together what people are saying out of context. But if anyone's better at French than me please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Gargamel

I now remembered seeing that mini-series when it was on TV! I can't remember it well, but I remembered that I didn't liked it that much. Some of the actors were quite bad! Confused

Some others were very good! Smile

Herkind, you summend up the dialogue quite well. Of course, there is much more, such as the good/evil beautiful/ugly thing.
Eponine says that Marius had to think she was ugly. Of course, compared to Cosette, she couldn't be pretty! She says that now he's looking at her just because she's going to die!
Marius says "If I was bad to you, I am sorry..." Eponine answers that he was not, because he doesnt' know evil. She continues saying that SHE is evil, as all the Thenardiers. That is when she speaks about her father, and he lie about Cosette.

You're right, Marius IS ugly!

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