Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| bigR |
a silly silly question for people in the UKWell, I've decided I'm going to london next april to see the show.I haven't seen les mis on stage for ages. The weird thing is that i've been to london several times (actually i've been living in london), i've been in Broadway while it was playing, and god knows in how many towns I may have been while the show was on... but i had lost my interest in it (now, I hate myself when I think about all the performances I've missed  ).
Well, I'm making up for it and I'm doing london in a couple of months and I wanted to make the people on th UK a couple of question (one normal, one silly): a) this is very general, I know, but, how good is the actual cast? strong and weak points? Since the Queens is smaller than the Palace, is it noticiable in the production? smaller sets? (i know about the symphonia machine and it already makes me tremble but if everything is smaller I'm really scared I'm going to be disapointed with my coming back to les mis...) b) o.k., I hope this does not come out as utterly racist because it is not AT ALL, but I just don't buy multi ethnic casts. I know, I know "you should use your imagination" (but then, why not having a woman playing valjean?) "it gives a chance to everybody" (i did not know theater was meant to give a chance to everybody, in that case though i'm an awful singer and actress i would have auditioned for a part somewhere) "alexandre dumas was not white, they were black people in france" (well, Dumas had a mulatto grand-mother who never setted food in france. That's not the same thing that being black, and he certainly was a revolutionary leader or a bishop). The thing is I don't mind someone with sligh asian or hispanic traits or someone with a slight darker skin like Adam Jacobs, as long as they can look french enough for me to believe that they "are" their characters, otherwise it kind of spoils the effect for me... and now I've seen in the official web that enjolras is played by a black guy. So, this is my "reunion" with les mis, and I already know that I'm not going to "believe" in my favourite character 
And here comes my silly question, before I buy my easyjet plane tickets, is there a way to know when are the actors going on holidays, or if the understudies are taking up roles? (i did not find anything in the official web, so maybe some other web?) .. I mean, I'm going to see the play in april anyway, no matter who is in it, it is not such an extreme thing, mind you... but if I can have a choice... |
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| Fantine |
Fantine is played by Joanna Ampil, who is Asian --> http://joampil.com
I guess she falls under your Adam Jacobs description though. |
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| lesmisloony |
On Bway my darling Montparnasse was most recently played by a black guy, Mike Evariste, and I still adored him. I flipped out when I first saw the playbill. But then I realised that, since he was the only black male member of the ensemble, I could pick him out in every scene and hiss "MONTPARNASSE!" to my poor friend. And I ended up liking him better than any Montparnasse I've seen, though I can really only compare him to JD Goldblatt, Kip Driver, and whoever the heck played 'Parnasse in London in 1999 and in 3nt opposite Sutton Foster... because all the other ones I didn't pay attention to...
/ramble But seriously, if *I* can't be bothered by a black Montparnasse with REALLY LONG DREADLOCKS... |
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| Orestes Fasting |
I've heard that the current London Enjolras is actually quite good, unlike the previous two or three they've had. Go see it before you pass judgement.
(And pssst, it was Dumas' father who was mulatto, and he was far from being the only black person in France.) |
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| flying_pigs |
I prefer the Enjolras understudy to the current (Edward Baruwa) personally, Mdme T is played by Melanie La Barrie who is also black but is hilarious, she is worth the ticket price alone! I'll give you a quick run through of the rest of the cast:
Valjean is Drew Sarich who I feel is...ok. Not a favourite at all. Javert is played by Hans Peter Janssens who is great (looks like a stiff penguin though!) Fantine is Joanna Ampil who is ok, I'm not too fond of her though (again I think the understudy is better) Th�nardier is played by Chris Vincent who has got better since starting a year and a half ago. Marius is Gary Watson who is very good (and very nice to look at too, and he has swishy hair  )
Cosette is Claire-Marie Hall who has a nice voice but that's about it. But then she is young (she's 21) Eponine is played by Cassie Compton who I really like, great voice although her acting sometimes leaves a little to be desired. That turned out to be a little longer but I hope it helps, the cast is overally very, very good, but at the end of the day it's your opinion! So it's worth going to see them! And I didn't see the show at the Palace but the sets here are not small at all, I've heard people prefer it at the Queen's because it's more compact, intimate and you feel close to the stage where ever you are. The orchestrations are also great thank god! Ask the people on the John Owen-Jones forum as they know bits and pieces about casts holiday dates. However, in some cases it's better to see the understudy IMO! Hope this helps! |
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| Moci |
Re: a silly silly question for people in the UK
I'm sorry to bring this up when no-one else seems at all fazed by it, but this has really confused me and it bothers me. It's theatre. It's not realistic in the first place- can you not believe in the characters because the costumes they wear aren't entirely accurate to the period? Or that they're singing songs written in the 1980s which wouldn't have a place in 19th century France? I don't think that it's a case of "it gives a chance to everybody" as much as the fact that to the majority of the audience it hopefully won't and shouldn't matter. Theatre is about making people believe that you're something you aren't and so unless it causes a problem in terms of plot (for example it would make the plot unable to work if Coalhouse from 'Ragtime' was white or Leo Frank in 'Parade' or Nellie from 'South Pacific' was black ), then anybody should be able to take the role, regardless of how they look, as long as they can sing and act the part. It may not be fully correct or 'canon' for any of the characters to be black or asian, or cockney, but Les Mis isn't about racial prejudice on a Paris barricade and therefore it doesn't matter and nobody wants to be deprived of an amazing performance from somebody, just because how they look wouldn't fit the historical context. Just my tup'pence worth. EDIT: due to lack of spelling ability |
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| mastachen |
I was fazed by it a little bit. But I didn't say anything. But hey, I'm sure if Jonathan Pryce and Keith Burns can pass as Asian, then Lea Salonga and Joanna Ampil can pass as white.
It's funny how people say "I'm not racist" and then follow it by a comment which could be perceived as racist. lol |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Usually, saying "I don't mean this to be racist, but..." is a warning signal that whatever follows is going to be pretty damn racist. Just because the OP doesn't intend to be racist doesn't mean s/he isn't... but since the OP also summarily dismissed all the arguments for multi-ethnic casting, I figured it wasn't worth arguing. |
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| bigR |
Hi, I really would like to explain myself. I was afraid some of you would think I was being racist, and since it has finally happened I really would like to explain myself a little more.
Of course, nobody here knows me in person, so, it would be silly for me to repeat "really I'm not a racist" because there is no reason you should believe me, but I really don't think that wanting the actors to look their part is something racist. You're right, when you say that theater is about imagination, and since for instance people don't sing their feelings in real life I should not expect everything to copy real life. Right. But there is also truth that during auditions directors look for people who can look their part. A black Valjean or a black Enrolras does not bother me more that a 60 year old playing Marius or a really really fat woman playing �ponine would. If I did not complain about it, it was simply because you never have a middle-aged man as Marius or an overweight woman, playing Eponine. Directors don't cast them because they don't look the part. I've read posts from people complaining about Michael Ball being cast in the TAC because he was too old for the part (couldn't they use their imagination?). I've listened to Aaron Lazar explaining how he did not get a part in Les Mis when he first tried for it because he was too heavy, and he was too young to play older characters but he did not have the body people expected in a young character. This means he would not have being Enjolras years later if he hadn't lose weight. If appearence wasn't important at all, javert and valjean would not change wigs to appear older in the second part of the play, and Gavroche would be played by a woman who could act better that all this kids. But I saw a small woman playing gavroche, no matter how brilliant she was, I won't be able to buy it. Does it means that I have something against women? I doubt it since I am a woman myself... Really, you can believe me or not, but a black enjolras does not bother me more than a 60 year old playing enrolras. You can be sure that if a 60 years old was playing the part in london, no matter how brilliant, how good is voice was and how wonderful his acting I would try to avoid watching him in the part, because it would be very difficult to buy it and it would spoil the experience for me... But as this never happen, I don't complain about it. I'm really sad you people think that I'm being so racist because I want people to look their parts. One of the friends coming with me to see the show is an indo girl and she heard me ranting yesterday about multiethnic casts and did not mind at all because she is my friend and she knows me, knows I'm not racist and I would rant the same way about, for exemple, a teenager playing mme thenardier... I'm sure that if a woman in her 50s was casted to play �ponine a lot of people would complain about that (maybe not all of you, but I'm sure many people would complain) and nobody accuses them of being racists... I don't know. Cast directors always look for actors who can fit in their roles, and they always discriminate. They discriminate because of age, weight, ugliness/pretiness, sex... and it is all right., nobody complains... Well, I know I will not convince anybody since you don't know me, but really, I don't think that wanting an actor to look his part means that I am a racist, and I certainly know that I am not. Really, why there is no problem when someone says that he does not like a certain actor in a certain role because his age is not right for that part, but it is a problem if you say that you don't like someone because his ethnicity is not right for that part? If we really are not racists we should be able to talk about this matter and say freely "I don't see a black-white-or whatever" in this part and it shouldn't be a problem. I want my cast to look french, as I want my cosette and my marius too look young and my thernardiers to look ugly. No more, no less, but since you never see an old cosette or a pretty thenardier the issue never pops up. I really would like you to believe me... |
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| bigR |
I agree with you. I don't mind what people are as long as they can pass as their characters, as you say yourself. I don't mind a 30 years old playing Valjean if he can pass as an older man. If he can't do it, then I would dislike his performance. I don't mind an asian or an hispanic actor playing a french guy, as long as they can pass as it when I see them from my seat in the theater. Lea Salonga never bothered me at all, and I can believe in Joanna Ampil as Fantine aswell. Really. It's all about characterization. If a young man can pass as Valjean, I don't mind how old he is. But I don't want to see from my seat that there is a young man disguised as an old man. I want to see the old man all the time. One last thing. Of course I am going to see the show no matter who is performing in it! One or two character not looking their parts (from my very partial point of view) is just a minor thing, and of course, if they make me forget my theory and make me believe in them I will be the first one in the audience to recognize it and cheer... And I'm sorry about this 2 long posts but i really don't want to look something that I am not
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| Orestes Fasting |
So would it ruin the show for you to have a Fantine with black hair? Her being blonde was a plot point in the book, after all. Would an excellent actress be able to get you to suspend your disbelief at the black hair and just enjoy the show anyway?
If so, why is the color of her skin just that much more important than the color of her hair? |
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| bigR |
Well, because in france plenty of women had black hair 
I prefer when she has blond hair because it reminds me of the book but it does no matter if she is a brunette because it does not make her character more or less belivable. That's all. Really, don't look too deep into it. The character is the same whether she is a brunette or a blond woman. But if Fantine had been a black woman I guess that her life would have been even more miserable and it would have been a big issue. And for Cosette too. really, do you think that Marius (who couldn't even accept valjean past) would have accepted a mulatto baronesse Pontmercy. I highly doubt it And also, she probably wouldn't have been accepted as a pupil at picpus and valjean wouldn't have been able to stay there! It really changes a lot of things...
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| Orestes Fasting |
Yeah, well, if she were Asian she would've been a walking anachronism, because France didn't engage in any East Asian imperialist hijinks until later in the century. So forgive me for getting the impression that this isn't about historical accuracy.
If suspension of disbelief is such a huge problem for you, you must get really out of sorts during the final battle when all the barricade boys start succumbing to invisible attackers in slow motion. |
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| Moci |
I hate to warn you that you'll be able to hear Drew Sarich's American accent, Hans Peter Janssens' Belgian one and the English accents of the majority of the rest of the cast. May I offer a synopsis of the plot in order that you may enjoy yourself?
Jean Valjean has been imprisoned for stealing a loaf of bread. However, his sentence has been increased many times because he kept attempting to escape- and all because the other prisoners bullied him due to the fact that he sang with a different accent.  When given his ticket of leave by Javert, Valjean notices that the policeman also doesn't have the local accent. Presuming that they can be friends due to this trait that they share, Valjean is shocked when Javert refuses his friendship. Incensed by this lack of respect (at least Javert's accent is from the correct continent), Javert vows to follow Valjean and see him get his come-uppance.
Meanwhile, Fantine is busy selling herself as a prostitute. When approached by Bamatabois, she turns him down. He is not however angered until he gets close enough to see that she is Asian. This is naturally horrifying to him as she isn't supposed to exist in 19th century France and she needs to fight him off. When Javert arrives, he immediately arrests her, not only for harming Bamatabois, but also for the crime of not belonging in this period. Upon meeting Valjean, Javert immediately notices his accent, but can't place why it bothers him until the Mayor also picks up the runaway cart. However luckily, the person who also bears Valjean's brand doesn't have any lines and therefore Javert's theory that this is Valjean instead cannot be disproved. The plot continues in this manner for some time, the Thenardiers being of course suspicious of Valjean due to his Americanness and Valjean in turn wondering why Fantine didn't leave her child with a lovely French couple w who don't sound like rejects from 'My Fair Lady'. In Paris, the students are rebelling because they (somewhat hypocritically) feel that it is ridiculous that nobody in this musical has a French accent. I could continue, but it's getting late and I'm getting bored now. |
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| mastachen |
What about Enjolras?  I'd like to see what happens to him!
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| bigR |
o.k. now you will maybe believe me: as i am not a native english speaker I don't always can tell an accent from another, but let me tell you this. Say that Les Mis were playing in Spain, and Javert was played by a german blue eyed guy with german accent, o.k.? Well, I would find it totally ridiculous and I would try to see the understudy as long as it was posible. So, if I say that I can't buy a white guy with a german accent as Javert or Valjean, or any other role and i find it silly and ridiculous, would any of you think that I am a racist? Seriously. A guy with a foreign accent (no matter how white he was, would be a BIG problem for me. Since english is only my third language, I probably won't be able to notice Hans Peter Janssens accent while he is singing, but if I could notice it, then YES, it would be a problem for me. No matter the colour of his skin. I'll try to explain myself even better. If I was going to see Les Mis in spanish or french (in these two languages I can easily pick up any foreign accent) and there was a scandinavian, german, british or whatever blue eyed and blond Fantine, with a wonderful voice and brilliant acting but with a foreign accent I WOULD NOT LIKE IT because it would take me out of the play. And just in case you think I am being racist against germans and scandinavians: If I was going to see Les Mis in french or english and one of the actors was a spaniard (like me) with a spanish accent I WOULD NOT LIKE IT AT ALL, and I would try at least to see an understudy. Am I a racists against myself then? So that it is even clearer: I prefer to see a white valjean over a black valjean. But I prefer a black Valjean without a foreign accent over a white Valjean with a foreign accent. I really did not think about accents before, since most times when people are singing in english I can't recognize them, but if I go to see Les Mis in english, a spanish/german/french accented Valjean would be far far worst for me than a black valjean or a young looking valjean. |
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| bigR |
with asians you probably won't be able to tell from your seat that they don't look french, since you can't see their faces properly. If i could tell, then it will be a problem of historical accuracy for me aswell. o.k. let's say that the next time the show comes to broadway enjolras is played by a brilliant fat actor on his 60's. Since suspension of disbelief is not a problem for you, can you sincerely tell me that you won't complain about it? |
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| Moci |
If he can run and jump around the barricade like a student then why not? Problem is that it'd probably result in a heart attack. |
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| mastachen |
Do you also have a problem with fat old people? If he was good, I really wouldn't have a problem. And if age really is a problem for you, then you're seriously gonna hate Drew Sarich. He's the least convincing old man I've ever seen. But his vocals are decent. Thus, I don't have a problem with him. John Owen Jones is quite young too, and he's widely considered one of the best Valjeans today.
And I'm pretty sure I can pick out an Asian over 500 feet away. Even if she was blonde... b/c of her facial features. |
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| Moci |
A visit to your optician might be a good idea. Can you not just sit down and accept that in the efforts of the production team to cast the roles with the most talented people, it might not be a perfectly accurate depiction of historical Paris? You never know, you might enjoy yourself. |
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| Moci |
Well naturally, because he's black the National Guard takes immediate action to shoot him. And lets face it, when waving that flag about, he's just an easy target.
Wouldn't a genuinely historical accurate 'Les Mis' be a wonderful thing? 3 hours of a theatre filled with the stench of Parisian slums, flea infested costumes and actors who sue because Cammack has knocked half their teeth out. It'd be sold out for years. 
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| bigR |
O.k. if that is true, then let me tell you that your capacity for suspension of disbelief is much higher than mine. You're a lucky person who will enjoy theater and cinema much more than me and you will be happier. Sadly for me, a foreign accent, a change of ethnicity or a body structure can take me out of any play or movie. I've often wondered at international movie productions where the characters are played by people coming from different countries. When we do that in europe, for example in a spanish/french/italian production, most times the foreign actors are doubled, so that everybody has the same accent. In a way it is a shame because I hate doubled voices, but a mix of accents would be even more difficult for me to believe. I always wondered about american productions with european actors. For example the miniseries with Depardieu and Malkovich. I've only seen it doubled so i was not able to hear the accents, but I always though it should be weird for american audiencies to have a character with a french accent in the middle of an english speaking movie. Don't misunderstand me. I think it is great because it is the only way you can really appreciate a performance, doubled voices are an awful thing, but I still think it would take me out of the movie world. So, maybe I am limited that way but a lot of things can take me out of a story. And accents are the main one. A french accent in a spanish Les Mis play would make me laugh, I am silly that way... Anyway, some of the things you wrote made me think twice about my opinions, so, although I know it is going to be very difficult for me, I promise I will try to keep an open mind while watching the play... |
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| bigR |
Well, if I have a problem with Drew being too young for his part, it is obvious that my problem is not exactly with old people, isn't it? Youth can be a problem too. I don't mind how old is JOJ as long as he manages to seem old on stage. Also, I maybe should visit my optician because I certainly can't see anyone facial features from 500 (or 50) feet away. And seriously, it is hard to believe that nobody would have a problem with a fat old enjolras. I know it is really cool to come here and say you don't have a problem with anything at all in this world, but somehow I find it hard to believe. i would like to see the real reactions if something like that ever happened... |
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| Moci |
There's a difference though. Being a 60 year old Enjolras affects the ability to perform the role- they can't run and jump over a barricade, they can't wave a flag with the same energy as a twentysomething 8 times a week. On the other hand, being white, black, asian or anything else doesn't affect their ability to act, sing or perform the role as written in the script. |
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| bigR |
o.k. then let's say my enjolras can do it. He is a on the fat side and he is old, but he can jump and wave flags and stuff... Oh, come on, don't tell me you would really like it! Or if the idea of a fat old man who can jump over barricades seems too absurd to you, then say than enjolras is young and fit, but Cosette is old and fat. Cosette does not have to jump or anything...
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| mastachen |
I said 'fat old people' because you kept bringing it up. I know you have a problem with age in general. And I have a lot of things that I have problems with, for example, Alex Gemignani, Patti LuPone, Miss Saigon, Wicked fangirls, and racists (not calling you one.) Why would I have a problem with a fat Enjolras? I go there to see a strong vocal performance. If a fat Enjolras gets the job done, then I'm cool with it. I don't know anybody fat that could play Cosette, but if Lisa Vroman comes to play Cosette, and she's older than the ages of people who would normally play Cosette, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I saw a slightly overweight Cosette at a high school on youtube once. I had no problem with it. She was quite good. |
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| Timmy_Wishes he was Quast |
big R...i'm not trying to be rude but do you really think theatre is for you? I mean if you can't willing allow yourself to enter this world of (When put plainly) "make believe" and willingly suspend your disbelief for an hour or two then don't bother. Stick to the "accuracy" of your books and your imagination, after all what you see on stage is someone elses imagination. Theatre is there to stimulate your imaginative state, so imagine there not black, not aisian, not 20 stone, not American. Whatever, but don't complain that it's not accurate, or if you know it's going to be an issue, in all honesty don't bother.
p.s That being said...i can't deal with a white cast of "The Wiz!" But knowing this i wouldn't go to a production that promoted this. |
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| bigR |
o.k,. as I said to moci, if that is true, then you are luckier than me. The Enjolras I am visualizing right now (and believe me, he is white) would make me want to kill myself (but I would do first the casting director) |
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| mastachen |
I'm Asian. If I ever play Marius or Javert (two of my dream roles) would you have a problem with me?
Or kill my casting director? |
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| bigR |
Dont' worry, I don't find you rude at all Well, the thing is that i love theater and i love Les Mis, but it is also true that I am very easily distracted when something does not fit into my idea of something.
Maybe I have a totalitarian kind of imagination because I can enter any world easily, it is not really a problem of lack of imagination. The problem is that once I've entered a world I don't want anything to disturb my first idea of it and I am easily "offended" by anything that "destroys" it (from my point of view). I remember that the 2nd time I went to see les mis the guy playing marius totally spoiled my experience. And he was white, young and thin, but he had such an ugly voice he just made me nervous... However, if the author/director states clearly that he is doing something different i don't mind as long as it is well done (and so, I enjoy fanfic. it is not like if everything has to be canon for me) So, yes, I guess that I should just relax and try to enjoy things that don't exactly fit into my vision of a play or a fictional world. I really will try 
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| bigR |
Well, since I've just made a serious resolution to try to enjoy stuff that doesn't fit into my vision of things, I'll also try not to kill anyone. 
But seriously, since you are asian... don't you think that a blond blueyed strongly built girl playing Kim in miss saigon would make the role hard to believe? |
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| mastachen |
It would be as believable as Jon Pryce or Keith Burns playing Vietnamese...so probably it wouldn't bother me that much. lol Actually, I've seen productions (not professional obviously, and on youtube) that featured a white Kim, and a white Christmas Eve from Ave. Q. Seriously, as long as they have the vocal chops to go through a role, I wouldn't be bothered by it. |
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| bigR |
lucky you again, then, because the blond girl in my mind would certainly bother me... | ||||||||
| Orestes Fasting |
The difference between Les Mis and Miss Saigon is that part of the plot of Miss Saigon hinges on race. Honestly, I always do a little mental cheer when I see a pretty blond Enjolras (surprisingly rare) or Fantine, or a Marius with dark curly hair, or any other actor that closely matches the book's description of their character. But if I saw a heavyset actor as Enjolras, a black woman as Fantine, or a scrawny blond boy as Marius, I would note the difference, STFU, and evaluate the performance on its own merits instead of trying to find out the understudy schedules. (And yes, I did have specific people in mind when I picked those examples--Nikki Ren�e Daniels was an amazing Fantine, Doug Kreeger was a good Marius, and I never saw Stephen Tewksbury as Enjolras but I've heard he was excellent.) |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
I can't believe it took three pages for someone to actually point this out. You can't have a white Coalhouse or a black Nellie, but go ahead and have a black Javert, an Asian Fantine, etc etc etc. BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER in some shows. Not everything has the same standard.
I saw Tewksbury several times as Enjolras over the course of about a year, and he was just fine. Never excellent, though. |
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| Quique |
Same here. It's always nice to see the characters as they are described in the novel, but in the end, the performances are all that matter to me. |
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| Moci |
I pointed it out on the first page actually.
Non-traditional casting is great, but in certain things it would be a problem. Chances are Keith Burns wouldn't play Thuy in Miss Saigon nowadays because he wore makeup and prosthetics to do so, which would be considered unacceptable today. Yet the plot of Miss Saigon hinges on Thuy being from a Vietnamese village and a complete contrast with Chris as an American. I'm not sure why the imagination argument keeps coming up, because the point of non-traditional casting isn't that you imagine that a black person is actually white or whatever, you just accept that it makes no bearing on the plot and it's theatre so has less of a sense of realism than film or TV. So you couldn't cast Thuy as a non-Asian because the fact that he is bears on the plot. However, the Engineer in the same musical can be cast with any race. "The role is in reality a theatrical device, a chorus, an eternal camp follower - alternately American and Satanic in personality, a character without a proper name and without an ethnic or national identity of any recognizable sort in the text or on stage. Mr. Pryce now plays him without any Asian makeup, and the Engineer could be acted without any textual revision or ethnic makeup by black and Hispanic actors as well as by whites and Asians. If anything, the Engineer is a character that could have been invented as a textbook example to promote the idea of non-traditional casting."- New York Times. Or Asian actresses have also played the role of Ellen in the past, a role more often than not played by a white woman. But the plot only states that she has to be believably American, so as long as the accent can make you know that she is, she can be Asian-American or African-American just as easily. I've used Miss Saigon as an example because it's a great example for requiring both traditional and non traditional casting. |
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| Quique |
I've mentioned this several times before on here, but I remember when I got into a heated argument with some stupid moron over at Le Cafe some time ago over the same thing. She said some pretty outrageous things regarding black Fantines. If I remember correctly, she said a black Fantine would not work because it's hard to believe that the Foreman would've thought she was prettier than the rest of the women in the factory.
This same jerk said her dream was to play Kim, but she won't ever be able to cause she's white. She considered that reverse racism.
Oh yeah, and she thought casting blacks in The Lion King was racist cause it's likening them to animals, therefore whites are more suitable. Oh, Jesus. I pretty much gave the exact same response Orestes did a few posts ago, but she would hear none of it. I think what disturbed me most though was that several people actually agreed with her. I think that was around the time I left that forum and started posting here. |
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| mastachen |
^That is so incredibly racist.
Maybe she has a swastika tattooed on her. |
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| bigR |
Well, I really really hope that you all believe that whatever you think about my problems with making believe and characterization I also think that this is utterly racist and disgusting! WOW, it is really amazing that someone nowadays can say stuff like that! Really, if it wasn't so incredibly offensive I think that i would just laught at it and dismiss this person! It is too despicable to even be taken seriously. Although this obsession with white people being the best choice for everything could also mean that the poor girl has such a bad voice and so little chance to become an actress that she wants to eliminate all competition! She probably is also ugly and wants all the pretty black girls out of her way
I really hope you don't think I am anyway near of someone like that... as I told you i may have problems with a black fantine but even more with a blond blue eyed fantine with a foreign accent. And if you think ot it, that is really absurd, because fantine could be foreign (a british or spanish girl working in France, couldn't she?) and the plot would be the same, so don't ask me why, but I know that I would not believe in her! Really. I've tried to have an open mind during this discussion, and I hope that although I may be extremely picky with small things and I may have a totalitarian kind of imagination, you don't think I am such a moron. 
I'm really working at stuff like this inside my mind: "if the convicts don't have props and it does not bother me, a black valjean should not bother me either" (so, see, I'm in the good way)
Of all this people I only knew Nikki Ren�e Daniels. I've had to google doug kreeger and stephen tewsbury, and I don't get what you mean with them... They are both young, white and fit... why do you thing they could look wrong for their parts? http://swimmingupstreamthemusical.com/db1/00022/swimmingupstreamthemusical.com/_uimages/kreeger-sq.jpg http://unhmagazine.unh.edu/f01/res/62.jpg |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Doug Kreeger simply doesn't fit my image for Marius at all--too fair (he looked almost blond onstage), and he had a hint of a Southern accent in his voice for some reason. And that picture doesn't show it so much as others, but Stephen Tewksbury was much stockier than the typical build for an Enjolras. Do you want another example? Judy Kuhn was too old to play Fantine, but the only scenes where this was a problem (*coughIDADcough*) were the ones where my suspension of disbelief was shattered anyway because she was just sitting there on the stage doing nothing. When she actually started emoting in Fantine's Arrest, I could buy into it.
Whenever the subject of interracial casting comes up, I can't help but think of the idiots on BroadwayWorld who pitched a fit when Norm Lewis got cast as Triton in Little Mermaid. Apparently they had no problem accepting that the kid in a Hawaiian shirt is a fish, the actors gliding around the stage on Heelies with tails sticking out of their butts are mermaids swimming, and a merman (Triton) could be the sibling of an octopus (Ursula)--but the thought of a black Triton being the father of a white Ariel was just too much for them. (Of course, while all that was going on, over at Les Mis there was about a three-in-eight chance of Fantine/Young Cosette/Adult Cosette and Th�nardiers/Young Eponine/Adult Eponine being the same race, which decreased to zero if there were any Fantine or Cosette understudies on. And yet I never heard any audience members complain, except some crabby old lady who thought it was disgraceful that they let "all these Orientals" be in the show.) |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
The Norm Lewis thing was friggin' hysterical. It even made Fandom Wank. (I'll link it when I can find it.) | ||||||||
| Quique |
Please do. I need a laugh right about now, lol. |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/1052228.html | ||||||||
| bigR |
o.k. now a question about accents to you all:
when I watch the TAC the only accent I am able to notice is the thenardier's cockney accent. The rest of the actors sound totally "neutral" to my ears, but since they come from differente english speaking countries I guess they do have different accents? I can easily tell an american from a british person when they are talking but I find it much more difficult when they are singing a musical, maybe because in theater most people try to have as neutral an accent as possible. So, just out of curiosity, are different accents in the TAC easily noticiable for a native english speaking person? Actually I don't even know if Lea Salonga has a foreign accent. To me, she sounds british when she is singing... I think I also remember one of the students was played by a french actor? Well, as strong as french accents usually are when they speak english, I can't catch it in the TAC. So, out of pure curiosity (I'm not going to start disliking the dvd), are the different accents really noticiable in there? |
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| Quique |
XD And what the hell is the story behind that "Would anyone care for a Freponine?" icon?
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| The Very Angry Woman |
Lea Salonga has a generic American accent most of the time (including in the TAC), when she's performing outside the Philippines.
J�r�me Pradon. |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
Doug Kreeger is from Hawaii and part Asian. |
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| Quique |
Both the Thenardiers and Gavroche have heavy Cockney accents in the TAC. Ruthie has a distinct British accent and so does Michael Ball and most of the ensemble. Well, at least to me. I used to dislike the heavy cockney accents, but mostly outside the British productions. Nick Wyman, anyone? |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
Ugh, Nick Wyman. I think he attempted Cockney but it came out Beatle. | ||||||||
| Quique |
lol. Thankfully, he softened it significantly by the time I saw him again in 2002 and 2003. But before that, it was just so out of place. Ick. | ||||||||
| bigR |
Great. This means that I am deafer than I thought. . |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Lea Salonga, Michael Maguire, and Judy Kuhn are noticeably American, and the Th�nardiers have a Cockney accent. The rest read as mostly neutral--Colm Wilkinson has occasional weird pronunciations that don't translate into a distinct regional accent, and Philip Quast's Javert has a definite British edge. The reason the accents are so much more noticeable in speech than in singing is that they're mostly in the vowels, and English vowels are standardized to some degree in singing. I'm not sure it's even conscious; it's just easier to sing using vowels that are more "pure" than the ones we'd speak with. One can, of course, consciously change them back, which is why the Th�nardiers' Cockney is so noticeable. J�r�me Pradon played Courfeyrac on the TAC, but he doesn't have a French accent at all. As regards the current London cast, Drew Sarich's American accent is so thick as to be almost exaggerated, even when he's singing. You'll probably notice it. |
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| EponineMNFF |
I always wondered why in some of the London casts, the Thenardiers and Gavroche all have cockney accents, but Eponine doesn't. Whaaaaaaa?
Well, it was like that in the cast I saw at least. Though I have heard a recording of Gemma Wardle on youtube where it sounds like she's doing a cockney accent and it's pretty awesome. /Off topic |
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| lesmisloony |
The one thing I really like about Frances--on the OLC, she was borderline Cockney.
However, in the Perkins/whatever film, which I just received in the mail, the bishop has a notably French accent--he ends up sounding like Andre the Giant half the time. And yes, it did distract me. A lot. |
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| curlyhairedsoprano91 |
Yeah ... it's kind of bizarre, in a show like this, when people try to affect accents. That's actually a part of what I liked in the TAC... there was such a plethora of different dialects, and no one was using something they didn't have. At least, if they were, they hid it really well ... | ||||||||
| Moci |
I remember hearing an audio of Caroline Sheen as Eponine in London where she had an incredibly strong and annoying Cockney accent in the parts which resemble dialogue such as 'The Robbery', 'Eponine's Errand' and the 'Attack on Rue Plumet', but that disappeared entirely for 'On My Own' and 'A Little Fall of Rain'. It was hilarious to listen to.
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| Catherine |
I'm totally going to see it in London on Wednesday! Its my first Les Mis! I want to see what the hype behind Parnasse is, so loony, please pm me and tell me about him. I've seen the TAC, but, theres only so much you can see with a concert. | ||||||||
| lesmisloony |
I love that I've created Montparnasse hype... Just a general question... Monty in London has the same yellow jacket with giant fuschia lapels, right? Because I've seen four different Monty costumes (in photos) to date... |
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| Catherine |
.. I don't know... | ||||||||
| The Very Angry Woman |
Wow, that was profound. |
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| Catherine |
Ha ha, I know, I just couldn't think of anything else, seeing as I've never seen the show. | ||||||||
| lesmisboy |
To add to this....when I first saw Joanna Ampil as Fantine, she had a very dark wig for Fantine. This was quite a while ago. When I saw the show recently, she has a blonde wig and wears extremely pale powder on her face and neck - and she looks very white indeed.
The same happened when Ria Jones played Fantine - VERY blonde wig and very pale makeup to 'whiten' her.... |
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| Fantine |
Okay... That's weird. | ||||||||
| EponineMNFF |
That just seems unnecessary to me.
Most people don't really care that much. |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
That sounds like it's going a bit far. Besides, she has Asian features. Did she get eyelid surgery, too?! This reminds me of the regional production in Australia that made up their (white) Eponine to look Asian. I wish I could remember the name of this group... |
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| EponineMNFF |
Any particular reason for that? O.o |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
To project an image of color-blind casting? To show that they actually thought Eponine was supposed to be Asian thanks to Lea Salonga? I really don't know. |
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| lesmisloony |
I'd be willing to guess it was the latter... 
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| Quique |
Same here. Lea is the most widely known Eponine thanks to the TAC, so I bet they automatically think the character should be Asian. This is also true with many S.E. and amateur productions that I've seen clips of. Not that I have a problem with her being Asian, but it is annoying that they base everything on what they are first exposed to.
For example...I bet we're going to start seeing a lot of Depp-like Sweeney Todds in future stage productions of the show, just like most Chicago productions tend to carbon-copy the film nowadays. |
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| lesmisloony |
Something just broke... |
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| Quique |
I'm guessing you did not like his Todd.
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| lesmisloony |
That'd be a big fat 'no.'
Especially when it comes to the singing. But then, Sweeney Todd is my second-favourite musical at the moment, and I'm obsessed with Len Cariou. And I love George Hearn. But Johnny Depp? Phhhht. |
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| Quique |
Hey, I actually liked Johnny! But he best stay in film. XD
Len is my fave stage Todd. Hearn is meh. His acting is pretty corny, imo. Helena was pretty good on film, though Angela can't be beaten! |
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| lesmisloony |
Yes exactly! I thought I was the only person who actually like Cariou better than Hearn! LC was the first Sweeney I heard, of course, and I loved how subtle he was about so many things. Especially the way he laughed during A Little Priest. And the way he sang "To-byyyy" during the finale. George Hearn kinda grew on me, seeing how I have a tendency to watch that DVD with him and Lansbury obsessively, but I shall always prefer Cariou.
However, I really, really hated HBC as Lovett. I thought she reduced the role to a weak, wispy victim instead of the ballsy loon I'm used to seeing from Lansbury--even LuPone had a more loveable Lovett! But then again, all just my opinions. Actually... I think I was so distracted by the ear-bleedingness of Depp's singing that I didn't notice his actual performance. Hmm... |
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| curlyhairedsoprano91 |
Ooh, Len Cariou. I like. He was fantastic in ALNM.
And ... the whole "Eponine must be Asian" thing ... I don't know whether to laugh or cry. |
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| Catherine |
Just for loony, I made a mental note of Parnasse's costume. At least, I think it was him.
He was wearing a long yellow stripy coat (like, one stipe was dull, one was shiny), with a greeny waistcoat, and a red dickie-bow type thing. He also had lipstick to made him look like he had very pursed lips. I hope that answers your question. |
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| Fantine |
I really love Asian Eponines. Don't know why. I think it has to do with Lea being the first Ep I ever saw. It kind of stuck with me. | ||||||||
| lesmisloony |
HHNNNK. No seriously, that's the noise I made. 
Is that him? Minus the lipstick (I think)? |
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| eponine5 |
Joanna Ampil's wig is lighter than it used to be, but it is definitely not blonde. Maybe it just reflects light in a weird way...?
Both understudies have blonde wigs, though. |
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| Catherine |
Yep. I have a picture, but seeing as I don't have a scanner I took it on my mobile so its not great quality |
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| curlyhairedsoprano91 |
Hmm. You know, that kind of begs the question ... at least in my mind ... how much does the "first actor you saw/heard" portray a character have an effect on how you view the character? For example, Lea was the first Eponine I ever heard, and I thought she was really annoying. I'll probably get pelted with rotton tomatoes for this, but I thought her TAC performance was ... irritating. Bad first impression of the character. However, now that I've listened to more casts/seen more people, I'm not so much irritated by Frances Ruffelle's Eponine and CKB's Eponine. She's still whiny, but not the kind of whiny that makes me say, "Oh please, shut up already." And CKB's a little crazy, too, which is always awesome. If the first album I heard were, say, the CSR, and I were immediately pelted with Tracy Shayne's highly grating voice, would I not be as much of a fan of Cosette as I am? Was first hearing Judy Kuhn and then hearing Rebecca Caine enough to save me from YouTube videos of Jamie Farr? Does the fact that Jenny Galloway makes me laugh make Jennifer Butt non-detrimental? This is probably kind of incoherent. Oh well. |
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| Fantine |
Well I was really young and had no further knowlegde of Les Mis prior to seeing the TAC for the first time. I mostly fell in love with the beauty of Lea and Ruthie, and their hair. (Seriously).
Also, my mother absolutely adored Lea in the TAC and as you know children are highly influenced by what their parents say and think, so I was "manipulated" into loving her. I do still love her as Eponine though and I have yet to come across an Eponine that I really like. After reading the books and understanding Eponine's personality more, I understand what everyone's saying about Lea being too angry or too over-pronounced or whatever. I liked what I've seen about Sutton, but I still adore Lea. I didn't like Judy Kuhn at all, but I love Cosette. So I guess it's not totally dependent on who you've seen in the role first. (I adore Julia M�ller and Lydia Griffiths). |
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| EponineMNFF |
I actually think the first actor you see influences your view on the character a lot.
Melissa Lyons will always be Eponine to me. It's how I imagine her when I read the book and her when I hear her voice, I think Eponine immediately. Even though I've seen a good amount of other actresses and love their performances, they're just an actor playing the character to me. *Shrug* It's weird. Hahaha. It's the same with Adam Jacobs. I've seen him 7/10 times as my Marius and he just is Marius. And Robert Hunt and Jennifer Butt.... etc. Hahah. *Shrug* But I'm glad Leslie Henstock hasn't become Cosette to me though. That would just be annoying. |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
I'm really glad I've forgotten most of Ron Baker's performance. If anything, I learned Javert can be but should not be completely boring, even if very well-sung. | ||||||||
| mastachen |
First impressions haven't really mattered to me. It's mostly who I think is best in the role (that I've seen live) that leaves a deep impression on me.
Valjean - JOJ Javert - Ben Crawford. Fantine - Lea Salonga Marius - Adam Jacobs Enjolras - Max Von Essen in December Thernardier - Norman Large Madame T - Jenny Galloway Cosette - Marissa McGowan Eponine - Marissa McGowan |
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| Quique |
I've forgotten most of his performance as well. If it wasn't for the one pic of him as Javert that I have, I'd probably even forget what he looked like. As for first impressions, the OLC was my first recorded cast. The 1989 L.A. cast was my first live one. I only prefer Elinore O'Connell's Fantine from that cast over most others I've seen live. And Colm, Frances, Michael Ball, and Rebecca Caine are amazing, but not my favorites. |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
I just remember my first impression was: "Wow, great voice, but will he ever actually act?"
Also, have you seen what he's been up to since? http://www.childrenoflight.com/ron_baker.htm |
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| Quique |
Self-healing, er...interesting. Isn't...what's his name...the 3rd NT 2006 Javert understudy doing something similar? | ||||||||
| The Very Angry Woman |
Yes, but I don't think he had a counterpart in The Glamorous Life... |