jackrussell
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Another song discussion: Master of the House v Little PeopleWhich do people prefer out of these two comedy numbers in Les Mis? By Little People, I mean the original version on the OLC recording, which was subsequently cut.
My own preference would be Little People. I've never been too keen on the use of the Thenardiers as comedy characters, not so much because it's against the novel (although it is) as because it seems to be an attempt to force a bit of humour where none occurs naturally.
Thenardier is responsible for the abuse of a child and attempts to rob and betray the hero. It's hard to see a funny side to that. It's as if the writers realised they needed some comic relief to stop people getting immune to all the death and depression, and shoehorned the Thenardiers into that role. Hence we have Master of the House.
Gavroche, by contrast, is a natural comic character, he fits perfectly into the story, and the use of him for comedy purposes also heightens the pathos of what happens later.
Plus I think Little People is quite simply a better-written song than Master of the House.
What does everyone else think?
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Jaym
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I like Master of the House. And I do think the Th�nardiers are very funny at some point. I think they are very funny at the wedding and they are definitely needed there, as a comic relief.
And I love the 'Let's not haggle for darling Colette' 'Cosette...' 'Cosette!'-part, in the Dutch show. I think I read somewhere it was in an English show as well, but I don't remember hearing it anywhere. There are also some funny points in Master of the House, I think.
Anyway, apart from that I do agree with you. I like Little People better and Gavroche [i]is[/s] a natural comical character. I think it's funnier and a better-written song.
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Vanessa20
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I'm a Master of the House person. Say what you like, but I'm a sucker for funny Thenardiers (the same way I'm a sucker for sappy romance, Luciano Pavarotti, Puccini, the musical Cats, and everything else that makes me feel unsophisticated sometimes), and I like it.
I like Little People, too, but I'm less attached to it, I suppose because it was cut and I'm less used to it. Also, one advantage of Master of the House is that it's the Thenardiers' introduction as well as a comic number. It establishes their characters. Gavroche's character, on the other hand, would have already been established in Look Down, so Little People could more easily feel like comic filler (that may be part of why they cut it).
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Andiana
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i have to go with Master of the House. It's a great number that helps make the audience feel better, and it's entertaining. The Thenardiers as comic characters is actually genius, because their humor is based on reality and the hardships of the time.
Little People is just a little kid singing about being small, and the music sounds like something from a Barney and Friends episode. I never thought the song fit well in the show (the full version). Not that it's a bad song, but for Les Miz, it never really fit with me.
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Orestes Fasting
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Interesting you should compare the two and pick Little People because Master of the House shoehorns the Th�nardiers into an inappropriate role. If anything, the original Little People did Gavroche an even greater disservice: in the book he was a foulmouthed boisterous defiant little hooligan, in the best way possible, and Little People just made him into this cute spunky little kid who makes the audience cry when he gets shot. Gavroche needs way more grit than he gets in that song. I agree that he's a good source of comic relief, but you don't have to defang him to do that.
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Disney-Bway27
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Oh, Master of the House by a LANDSLIDE. I absolutely LOVE that song. Not too crazy on Little People.
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mastachen
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Re: Another song discussion: Master of the House v Little PeI don't like Little People because it seems to go against the tough-guy persona that Gavroche tries to display. I'm glad the full version of the song was cut, and that his death song was replaced with 10 Little Bullets.
| jackrussell wrote: |
Thenardier is responsible for the abuse of a child and attempts to rob and betray the hero. It's hard to see a funny side to that. It's as if the writers realised they needed some comic relief to stop people getting immune to all the death and depression, and shoehorned the Thenardiers into that role. Hence we have Master of the House.
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The scene where Thenardier robs Valjean wasn't funny. Neither was the scene where Madame T orders Cosette around. Master of the House and The Waltz of Treachery are funny because of the blatant irony in the songs, and Master of the House is probably the best character introduction song in the entire show. And besides, dark ironic humor is the best! Methinks you'd have a long list of complaints against Sweeney Todd then.
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jackrussell
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Master of the House definitely is winning at the moment!
I'll concede that Little People does sentimentalise Gavroche too much. It would be nice if he could be a bit rougher - the coarsest line in the song is the bit about the flea and the Pope's bottom, which is pretty mild, but I guess there's a limit to how rude the lines given to a child actor can be. It would be better if he wasn't "defanged" though, I admit.
Vanessa- just to make myself clear, I'm not suggesting MOTH should be cut, you're quite right the Thenardiers do need to be introduced and it does that very well.
Mastachen - I love Sweeney Todd actually, but it's a very different show to Les Mis. Dark humour and irony are crucial to Sweeney Todd but apart from the bits you mention they are almost totally absent from Les Mis, so it grates a bit. Also those scenes are not dark and clever the way Sweeney Todd is, it's just bawdy and obvious clowning most of the time. And I've seen plenty of actresses play the scene where Mme Thenardier rants at Cosette for laughs.
You're quite right to point out that Thenardier isn't exclusively a comic character though - at least he shouldn't be. Some actors seem determined to play every bit he's in for laughs, even Dog Eats Dog, which definitely isn't a comic song.
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Orestes Fasting
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| jackrussell wrote: |
I'll concede that Little People does sentimentalise Gavroche too much. It would be nice if he could be a bit rougher - the coarsest line in the song is the bit about the flea and the Pope's bottom, which is pretty mild, but I guess there's a limit to how rude the lines given to a child actor can be. It would be better if he wasn't "defanged" though, I admit. |
He doesn't have to curse if it would offend the poor sensitive mommies. (Though I doubt your average nine-year-old boy would object.) He could've been made much ruder and tougher and more gleefully abusive towards authority without using any of the seven words you can't say on TV--just look at the book.
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KristinT
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I was glad that the original version of "Little People" got cut. I agree with whichever of the original production team members it was who said that it felt like a number out of an entirely different musical and on the eve of a revolution where half the cast was going to die it felt wrong to have a song about how great it is to be short.
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nabla
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Little people always really annoyed me, I prefer Master of the House by faaar
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Quique
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Thank God they cut that song.
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jackrussell
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| KristinT wrote: | | I was glad that the original version of "Little People" got cut. I agree with whichever of the original production team members it was who said that it felt like a number out of an entirely different musical and on the eve of a revolution where half the cast was going to die it felt wrong to have a song about how great it is to be short. |
I believe it was Cameron Mackintosh. The actual writers were disappointed about it, but then they were unfamiliar with Oliver so it wouldn't have occurred to them that it sounds more like a number from that show.
I also think that it's a better tune. The main verse tune of MOTH (the diddle-diddle PLONK, diddle-diddle PLONK bit) doesn't strike me as one of CMS's more inspired efforts, I'm afraid. Still a good song though and I do like all the "Jesus" rhymes.
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Hans
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| jackrussell wrote: | | KristinT wrote: | | I was glad that the original version of "Little People" got cut. I agree with whichever of the original production team members it was who said that it felt like a number out of an entirely different musical and on the eve of a revolution where half the cast was going to die it felt wrong to have a song about how great it is to be short. |
I believe it was Cameron Mackintosh. The actual writers were disappointed about it, but then they were unfamiliar with Oliver so it wouldn't have occurred to them that it sounds more like a number from that show. |
This is the absolute opposite of what I've read. It was in fact Oliver! and its character Dodger that, in combination with JCS, inspired the musicalisation to begin with. Dodger's songs reminded the creative team of Gavroche, which apparently is a much more prominent figure in France than we know.
Also, the song isn't about "being short". It's about how people you don't expect to have much influence can make big changes - it is (at least an attempt to) a theme song for the message of the whole show.
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Gargamel
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| Dvarg wrote: | | Dodger's songs reminded the creative team of Gavroche, which apparently is a much more prominent figure in France than we know. |
In France, Gavroche is maybe with Cosette (the young one) the better known character in les Mis�rables. Probably even before Valjean.
I Love the Gavroche song, and in France again, this is without any doubt the song of the show people know better. I can even guess that a lot of people don't even know that song is taken from a musical...
And the lyrics are writen by Hugo himself... Changing those lyrics is not even possible to consider in french...
But I also love "Master of the house". The fact that the Thenardiers are used as comic characters does not bug me that much. They are funny only when they are "on stage": with their clients, at the wedding...
But they definitly are not funny when "selling" Cosette or during the robbery...
It then makes sense.
But I cannot choose between the two songs...
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jackrussell
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| Dvarg wrote: | This is the absolute opposite of what I've read. It was in fact Oliver! and its character Dodger that, in combination with JCS, inspired the musicalisation to begin with. Dodger's songs reminded the creative team of Gavroche, which apparently is a much more prominent figure in France than we know.
Also, the song isn't about "being short". It's about how people you don't expect to have much influence can make big changes - it is (at least an attempt to) a theme song for the message of the whole show. |
I haven't read that, but if that's the case, that actually reinforces my original point that Little People (despite its faults, which I acknowledge) does make a valuable contribution to the show.
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mastachen
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^But to me, that's one of the reasons why Little People was unnecessary. You'd think after 3 hours that the audience can figure out one of the central themes of the show by themselves without a 9-year old telling us what it is.
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Hans
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| mastachen wrote: | | ^But to me, that's one of the reasons why Little People was unnecessary. You'd think after 3 hours that the audience can figure out one of the central themes of the show by themselves without a 9-year old telling us what it is. |
I don't think it's particularly necessary either, but it's less pointless than telling that being short is super.
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jackrussell
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| mastachen wrote: | | ^But to me, that's one of the reasons why Little People was unnecessary. You'd think after 3 hours that the audience can figure out one of the central themes of the show by themselves without a 9-year old telling us what it is. |
That's true, but my argument would be that it gives the audience a moment of light relief amongst the tragedy, while still contributing to the show's overall theme. And having that song there to provide comic relief means the Thenardiers don't have to fall over themselves trying to be funny all the time.
However I'll accept I'm in a minority on this! Thanks to all for your thought-provoking replies.
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MariekeLovesEnjolras
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I like Little People so much! Unfortunately, in the Dutch version, it's completely cut  It's only :
Good evening dear Inspector
Lovely evening my dear
I know this man, my friends,
His name's inspector Javert
So don't believe a word he says '
'cause none of it's true
This only goes to show what little people can do
(forgive me if i mistyped a bit)
and then it goes Bravo Little Gavroche, etc...
In Dutch:
Dag Inspekteur hoe gaat het nou,
U praat weer met flair
Ik ken deze meneer
De inspekteur heet Javert
Geloof dus maar geen woord
Van wat hij hier vanavond weer smoest
Hij zag me wel, maar dacht dat kleintje houdt zich wel koest
Which is a pity, because especially the second bit... it's a bit of fun in between  Just like jackrussell said before.
During Gavroche's death he sings Ten Little Bullets...
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Hans
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| jackrussell wrote: | | Having that song there to provide comic relief means the Thenardiers don't have to fall over themselves trying to be funny all the time. |
I agree with this. The Thernardiers aren't that funny, and can be quite annoying in their clownerisms.
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