Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| broadway_bound |
Eponine or Cosette?Eponine or Cosette? I love them both but I like Eponine better because I am in love with her songs!___________________________ Current roles-The Music Man (Zaneeta Shinn) & Parade (Mary Phagen) (musicals only) Previous roles- The Jungle Book (Nolina the Monkey) The Beauty and the Beast (Carlita the Feather Duster) The Wizard of Oz (Lacreecia the Witch) Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (Princess Starlight) Peter Pan (Liza) R&H's Cinderella (Rose the Citizen) The Secret Garden (chours, ghost & dance captain) The Sound of Music (Elsa Shrader) Mamma Mia (Rosie) Wicked (chours & dance captain) |
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| RoffleCopter |
As far as character wise, Cosette because she was just an innocent player in the game that is Les Miserables. Eponine however was like.. Crazy. Wanting to kill Marius and stuff. Silly Eponine. Trix are for kids. | ||||
| Orestes Fasting |
In the musical, Cosette, because I hate what they did with Eponine and besides, soprano solidarity, yo.
In the book, Eponine. She may be crazy, but it's interesting crazy. |
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| broadwaybelle22 |
I think...Eponine. Just because her character gets the dramatic act of dying. Also because almost everyone can relate to her. Not so with Cosette, although I do love her character as well. |
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| RoffleCopter |
Like Tom Cruise.. Except the fact that people actually like Eponine. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Re: I think...
Nonsense! Most of the people with access to this message board can relate perfectly to being utterly oblivious to how well off they actually are--they just don't know it. |
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| PublicFlogging |
In the book, Eponine is without a doubt my faverite character.
Why? Because she's crazy! And not just the whole trying to kill Marius then relizing was a horriable idea it was and taking a bullet for him. Go back and reread "a rose in misery" 
I love that girl. She's insane. And probably a crack head. I don't much like the musical protrayal of Eponine though. She's whiney, emo and sane. In the book she jabbers on about everything and is also very clever, but in the musical she can't think of anything better then unrequitted love to sing about...? 
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| PublicFlogging |
Re: I think...
You win at life. |
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| Azelma |
Years pass and yet the topics never change.
They're the same girl. |
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| Moci |
We've not had the popping balloon in TAC 'Castle on a Cloud' topic recently... give it a month or so. 
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| The Very Angry Woman |
Re: I think...
Right, I'm constantly surprised at how many people on internet message boards work for their dad's gang and live in utter squalor. |
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| Brackynn |
Re: I think...
Amen! I'm a Cosette-lover pretty much by default, as I really don't like the musical version of Eponine. In the book I liked both their characters pretty much the same -- Cosette for being adorably sweet and Eponine for being fascinatingly insane -- but all I see in the musical when I see Eponine is a self-pitying street rat peeved off because she has a crush on a guy who's obsessed with someone else. There's none of that darker side of her knowingly going to her death and dragging Marius down with her. |
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| Ep-Griz-Reno |
Po-NINE.
So much more happens to her in the course of the show. This is Cosette's mind during the show: I'm tortured I'm rescued. I fall in love. My Dad dies. This is Eponine's: I'm loved. I'm spit upon. I fall in love with my best friend. I watch my best friend fall in love with another. I do everything to help him out. I get injured. I die in my love's arms. I guess it's not SO MUCH more...but the audience normally falls in love with her...and for them to watch her die is just so powerful...PLUS I'm a mezzo-belter, so I definetly adore her vocal moments. PLUS-she gets to come back when she's dead ((and fantine of course too))...but everyone said it gave them chills when I came back...and yeah. Hahaha idk |
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| Quique |
Eponine.
Her story is by far more interesting. Well, in the musical, anyway. |
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| convict24601 |
Agreed. Though on the other hand you do feel sorrow for Cosette as a child, after she's rescued by Valjean she sort of lives a normal life. Plus, there is the fact that she doesn't know anything about her past. She wants to know, and she has so many unaswered questions in her mind she feels she's old enough to know. And in the end, having her father die is devestating (not barricade slaughter devestating, but day to day devistating) because she didn't think she was ready to let go. Cosette does go through alot in this show, but it isn't as tragic as Eponine, which, like mentionned before, is probably the reason why people tend to fall in love with her more. |
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| PublicFlogging |
In the book Eponine's life is even more worse, Marius treats her like total crap. He get all upset and annyoed with her whenever she comes near him, and can barely be bothered to say 'hello' to her. There was this one part where Eponine was offering to do all these nice thing for Marius, like mend his ripped shirt for him, and he was completely ignoring her... untill she mentioned Cosette, that is. I don't blame him for not being her lover, the guy can't help how his heart is swayed, but it really bothered me that Marius couldn't even be her friend. 
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| PublicFlogging |
Re: I think...
I do. I'm just using the library's computer. Ever notice how I'm only on for a short time in the middle of the night? Its because for most of the night, I'm doing ....stuff.... And I'm too busy hiding from a police inspector with scary sideburns during the day.
(ppssshh, I'm being sarcastic, just so you know) |
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| Brackynn |
I always struggle to understand the view that Cosette, after being taken away from her ordeal at the Thenardiers, lived a breezy, privileged life with Daddy's death being pretty much the only major upset for her. Although you probably wouldn't look twice at someone like her in the street today, when her character is placed in context, she has a lot to overcome.
Think about it. She's the illegitimate daughter of a prostitute, abused as a child, hidden away from the world in a convent (book-version, anyway ... I don't believe this is specified in the musical) and brought up by an ex-convict on the run. In Hugo's time, this would have been a big deal and a serious black mark against her. Not to mention, as convict24601 said, she has so many questions about herself and her past that Valjean refuses to answer. The fact that she manages to overcome her circumstances and eventually become a well-adjusted person is a testimony to her strength of character. Contrast this to dear old Ponine who, when she had a privileged life, bullied those weaker than her and upon falling into poverty went revenge-crazy and arguably homicidal. Musical-version Eponine, however, does deserve some credit for still being loyal and also a generally nice person ... even if this, in my own opinion, makes her a little boring. Sure, Eponine tugs at our heartstrings and she gets bucketloads of sympathy. Her story is tragic. But I find Cosette's story just as beautiful and even inspirational. If I had to pick a role model, I'd choose somebody who rose above hardships in their life, not somebody who wallows in their own misery until it kills them. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Can I get a nice big order of Word with some Amen on the side? |
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| convict24601 |
Yes. Well said Brackynn. |
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| PublicFlogging |
I agree with everything you said about Cosette. There is so much more to her then life sucks, and then suddenally becomes perfect. Applause for you. However, I am going to have to defend 'ponine. Victor Hugo seems to excuse the way Eponine and Azelma treat Cosette. This is just off the top of my head, so it isn't word for word, but he wrote "But at that age little girls are just minature copies of their mothers." Basically, the Thenardier girls didn't know any better and were merely imatating their mother, which is normal behavior. And she isn't 'revenge crazied'. A revenge crazed person's thought pattern would be more along the lines of "Hmm... If I kill Cosette, then I can have Marius all to myself..." not "I know Cosette is going to steal Marius away from me... but I just want to see him happy." Lastly, Eponine does not wallow in her misery. I strongly feel the whole "I'm so poor... I sometimes sleep in ditches... Just look how pathiec I am" is just an act she uses while begging to invoke pity in people. Otherwise... she seems downright cheerful to me. |
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| Cake_in_Song |
If the question is, who would you rather play, then the answer is Cosette, since she's a soprano, and I'm a soprano, and so we're a match made in heaven, etc, etc. However, if the question is who is the better person, then I have no answer, since I haven't seen the show...(and I will now begin to hide from those of you prepared to throw rotten fruits at me)...and, since there is no answer. Everybody loves characters for different reasons. Some of you like Eponine, some of you like Cosette, some of you like both, and some of you like neither. It's part of life. Imagine what the show would be if Cosette and Eponine were indentical people. A bit lame, eh? Both characters are crucial to the development of the story, and are wonderful in their own special "musical theatre" way. There are better things on this earth to argue about. | ||||
| Brackynn |
Admittedly, 'revenge-crazy' probably wasn't the best term to use, especially in terms of musical-version Eponine, who never tried to sabotage Marius and Cosette's relationship. Book-version Eponine, however (which I'm much more familiar with), deliberately and knowingly seeks out Marius and brings him to the barricade with every intention of having him die. It's a classic 'if I can't have him, nobody can' mindset. Even after she takes a bullet for him, she still tells him how happy she is that he will be with her in death soon. Maybe she's not thinking so much in terms of revenge, but she's definitely quite selfish. And honestly, Cosette did not 'steal' Marius from Eponine. You can't lose what you didn't have -- and as far as I can tell, Eponine had no romantic claim on Marius. Plus, it's not as if Cosette went out of her way to woo Marius. She bumped into him on the street, fell in love at first sight, then hoped and prayed he felt the same way while back at home as Marius actively sought her out. It's highly doubtful she even remembered Eponine, let alone knew that she also loved Marius. (And in the book, Cosette saw him first. Sorry, had to point that out )
Finally, I have a lot of words to describe Eponine, but 'downright cheerful' isn't exactly top of my list. Away from Marius, is she ever really happy? Even when she is with Marius, I often got the impression that her cheerfulness was a bit of a mask for what she was really going through, not genuine happiness. As soon as he brushes her off, she seems to turn melancholy, bemoaning her plight -- 'little you know, little you care', etc. And 'On My Own'? It's almost all her just going on about her misfortune in life. |
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| Fantine |
Please God, stop this torment! | ||||
| Quique |
Extremely rare clip of the 2005 Japanese production.
It's Minako Honda singing "On My Own." I believe she passed away from leukemia in late 2005. R.I.P. She was a great Eponine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDseRV8LvG4 |
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| eponine5 |
Like the chicken and the egg 
About the whole relating thing, remember, I'm sure most people here didn't grow up in a convent either. It's so hard to choose between Eponine and Cosette because they are so completely different characters. Cosette is so sweet and everything, but still, I have to end with Eponine. Fact: People like to 'feel sorry' for characters. When there is an untypical character with a tragic storyline, people like to love that character. The more love the character gets from other characters in the story, the less love the general audience/reader/thing feel that character needs. Because in the musical and even more in the book, Eponine is basically liked by no-one, the audience like her more for it. On the other hand, Cosette has 3 characters that love her to the end of the world, so naturally, she gets less sympathy. |
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| PublicFlogging |
Oh, I see what you were talking about with 'revenge crazied'. Well... ah, whatever. We could go back an forth on this topic forever. And... Well, I didn't quite word that to well. Instead of "I know Cosette is going to steal Marius away from me... but I just want to see him happy." I should have written "I know Cosette is going to kill of any possable chance I would have with Marius.. but I just want to see him happy." It was 2 o'clock in the morning, I wasn't paying much attention to how little sense I was originally making. Musical-Eponine, yes. She's very whinney and self-pittying. I can't agree more. However, book-Eponine just seems to... go with it. Now that I think of it, the cheerfulness is mostly when she's around Marius, but otherwise she still doesn't wallow in her misery, she just goes along with it. She complains very little (I think I can remeber her muttering all of one complaint about the snow when her father sent her outside to stand gaurd) and just does what she needs to survive. And um... just to make sure, we aren't arguing right? We're just debating? You aren't devolping any sort of hatred for me, we're just talking, right? |
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| Brackynn |
Don't worry -- there's no hatred developing on my part I just love a good debate. (Psst ... I hope that goes for you as well!)
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| Fantine |
This is absolutely heartbreaking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTbUQa1eDG8&mode=related&search= |
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| Glinda Upland |
Epopine or CossetteI like Eponine! Lol! |
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| Quique |
Awwwww. 
She had an incredible voice. I'd forgotten that she had also played Kim. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Okay, so the conversation so far has basically been thus:
"I prefer Eponine because I can relate better to her." "You don't live in abject poverty and run errands for your father's gang." "Well, no, but I relate to the unrequited love, and that's the more important part of her character." Now, perhaps I'm just ignorant of this viewpoint because I read the book before I saw the musical, but the poverty and the unrequited love seem to be directly related to each other, instead of ordinary teen angst humanizing a mis�rable and allowing us to relate to her. Why? Because in the book, it's much more obvious that Marius never even looked at Eponine, and that class distinctions were a major factor. Marius, for all he's a sympathetic character and probably a Gary Stu of Victor Hugo, can be a classist prick at times. His first reaction when Eponine stumbles into his room is horror, then pity, and then he notices that she might have turned out pretty if she weren't living in utter squalor. He notes this with pity and regret, but no attraction whatsoever to what remains of her beauty. This isn't just Marius being a doofus about Cosette; this is the same Marius who blushes to his hairline when girls on the boulevard whisper about him, and who thinks they're laughing at his shabby clothing when they're oohing over how handsome he is. It's almost like he doesn't consider Eponine a girl at all, in the sense of being available. And Eponine seems to realize it too--remember what she says in the Field of the Lark about Marius not wanting to be seen with a woman like her. So what galls me about "I'm totally like Eponine because I like this guy but he doesn't notice me and he already has a girlfriend" is that that's not the situation at all. Marius and Eponine don't relate as equals. She knows he will never even look at her, not because he's Marius and he's oblivious, not because he has Cosette, but because he's so clearly out of her league. A baron, even a poor one, courting a gutter wench? It's just Not Done, and they both know it. Eponine's poverty isn't just another misery to be heaped onto her Deep Teen Angst or vice versa; they're quite connected. So pardon me for saying that anyone well-off enough to have an internet connection and be able to gripe on message boards probably can't relate to Eponine's situation at all. Might Hugo have been trying to point out that love does exist across class distinctions? Well, yes, but that doesn't mean Eponine's unrequited love is Just Like Yours. Said distinction is a major part of why Marius doesn't notice her. Love triangles are a dime a dozen in literature and musical theater, so why not find someone more appropriate to project yourself onto? |
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| Colle |
Quique, thank you for sharing that Minako Honda clip of her "On My Own." I have watched her "I'd Give My Life For You" before, and I have heard that she was in Les Mis but I didn't know that she played Eponine. Does she play Eponine on any of the newer Japanese cast recording(s), if so which one(s)? From what I have seen of her, I think she was a talented singer/actress. It is sad what happened to her. | ||||
| EponinesRain |
I agree with you about the love triangle thing and the unrequited love of crushes. As corny as this sounds...some people, however, may relate to Eponine when it comes to an unrequited love of any kind of ideal that they know they can never have. An untouchable something and not just someone. What I mean is, some people struggle to prove themselves to their peers or parents (Marius, the Thenardiers) by pursuing--oh, i dunno-- a career or foreclosing some decision because it's what is expected of them from their culture or social context. And so, their life seems to be stunted and each feels "on my own" when it comes to how he/she honestly feels. Sure, everybody in the book/musical desires something: JVJ wants peace and safety, Javert wants to capture JVJ, Enjy wants justice, etc...but when it comes down to Cosette and Eponine, what is unrequited is emphasized in the latter character. Besides, the audience knows that Cosette already has the love of Marius, so they feel more sympathetic for 'Ponine. Is this too far-fetched or does it make any sense? |
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| Superstar83 |
I like them both. Have never understood the Cosette hate. It makes me sad. I also adore Fantine, who feels so under-rated sometimes.
I do love Eponine, but it feels quite embarrassing to admit that most of the time. |
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| La Carmagnole |
This is a perfect explanation. People feel sorry for the character, so people like it. Cosette seems so lucky to most audiences: for sure she had unhappy childhood, but now she found such a caring father, she lived in comfort and finally was happily in love. It's then easy to forget that Cosette's earliest years were really terrible. As most of people instincively want justice, they think like this: "If Cosette has everything, let Eponine have at least a boy". I admit, this is also one of my main reasons of which I used to be Eponine freak and I still like her quite much (there's also her book!death scene). |