Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| startrekmaniac |
JavertI was thinking. Javert really isnt a bad guy. He just has this belief that poor people are bad. Than was Vljean sets him free at the barridcade he, cant belive that Vljean is a good person even though he broke the law. So in the end he kill's himself. Im I right on this one? |
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| Catherine |
Javert isn't the bad guy. Valjean has an A in it. Javert is the Law and the Law is not mocked. There is no evidence that he thinks all poor people are bad, thought this may be so. Thenardier is the bad guy. He robs dead bodies. Are we done now? Cool. | ||||||
| actor |
He kills himself because he devoted his life to hunting down Valjean. After Valjean lets him go he has to do the same for him and his whole life has became pointless. | ||||||
| Catherine |
Ah yes, and that. |
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| lesmisloony |
Someone like Orestes is allowed to correct me on this, but I don't like the idea that Valjean was Javert's primary goal throughout his entire life. That's silly. Javert was a cop, that was his primary goal--to uphold the law. Valjean was just on the backburner. It's not like Sideshow Bob's obsession with killing Bart. | ||||||
| curlyhairedsoprano91 |
Holy crap. Loony. You're my new best friend, mmmkay? Hahaha so much win. |
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| lesmisloony |
Well, it is Frasier-related... 
(ETA: And Sideshow Bob's prison number was 24601, you know. So it's LM-related too!) |
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| curlyhairedsoprano91 |
Haha, yes it was.
I <3 Kelsey Grammer. |
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| bigR |
Well, javert tried to catch valjean something like 3 times in 20 years. I wouldn't call that devoting his life to hunting him. And he certainly does not let valjean leave to pay him back for saving his life. That would be like accepting a bribe and javert would never do that. Even in the musical he is very clear about it "You would trade your life for mine.Yes, Valjean, you want a deal!Shoot me now for all I care!If you let me go, beware,You'll still answer to Javert!" He lets him go because he doubts. And he has never known doubt before. He's always lived in a world of certainities and then he suddenly does not know anymore what's right and what's wrong. He's lost his grap on this world. That's why he kills himself. |
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| herkind |
Re: Javert
I think that's partly right. Javert has spent his entire life viewing the world in black and white. Since Valjean is a convicted criminal, Javert views him as the scum of the earth, yet after Valjean saves his life as well as Marius' he finds himself starting to respect him. The idea that a man can be a criminal and still worthy of respect is inconceivable to Javert and turns everything he had previously assumed about the world upside down. He's lost control and he can't deal with that. That's my take, at least. However, he is definitely meant to be the antagonist and not the villain. |
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| lesmisloony |
^ Are you talking musical Javert, or are you just painting in really broad strokes?
I think Javert is a very complex character--so complex that I feel completely incapable of writing him outside of comedy. But maybe that's because I read the little mini-essay AmZ wrote about him on her ff.net profile. |
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| herkind |
Yes, I was mostly talking about musical!Javert since I think that was what the original poster was talking about and because I wasn't about to sink my teeth into a character analysis of novel!Javert. That would quickly veer into tl;dr territory. |
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| actor |
Isn't Stars about Javert devoting his whole life to finding him? "I will never rest 'till then" |
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| Orestes Fasting |
In the novel there's also a heavy component of duty: his duty as a policeman is to apprehend the ex-convict and bring him back to almost certain death or life imprisonment. But for the first time, he's realized that he has another duty--to morality? to God? to his conscience? call it what you will--and it's the polar opposite of his duty to the law: protect a good man, and one who, moreover, just saved his life. To fulfil one duty would be to betray the other, so he quite simply hands in his resignation--to the police on the one hand, and to God on the other.
In his mind, whatever he does--let Valjean go or turn him in--would be wrong in one way or the other, so he does the only thing he can think of to absolve himself from having to make that choice. |
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| lesmisloony |
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/199791/AmZ
The greatest character analysis of Javert I've ever seen. AmZ understands his character perfectly, and really shook up my own view of the guy.
One doesn't have to spend much time around me (on the internet) to learn that I don't really give a twig about the musical characterisations. They're skewed, Sued, and simplified. |
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| bigR |
"I will never rest 'till then"[/quote] One doesn't have to spend much time around me (on the internet) to learn that I don't really give a twig about the musical characterisations. They're skewed, Sued, and simplified.[/quote] I am probably alone in this but I really think that in spite of all his flaws this musical is probably the best condensation and adaptation of any novel I have ever seen. Well, maybe the 1982 movie was closer to the book, but it is way much easier to adapt a novel to a movie than to a musical, and just because of this i think the musical is better. Of course, they changed some characters and left out some stuff and they added all the "turning" angst, etc, but when I think about what usually happens with most book adaptations, well, I think they made a great job. And I am not praising B&S here, but the London people who worked with them afterwards. Although I love listening to the OFC because it is so different and seems so fresh, it is when I listen to their �ponine monologuing with sophisticated explanations about the beauty of marius and cosette's love, when I hear enjolras saying to marius "pour nous c'est comme si tu �tais mari�" or when I listen to feuilly or courfeyrac (I'm not sure which one), praising Lamarque because "l'Empereur admirait sa bravoure au combat" that I feel like shouting: "did you ever read the damn book?" At least the part when it says that the ABC guys never ever said "empereur"? |
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| curlyhairedsoprano91 |
I agree with bigR a little bit here. Obviously, the musical, despite being my favorite ever, is flawed. Characters aren't as well developed in the musical as in the novel ... but that's going to happen, condensing a 1500 page book into a less-than-3 hour musical. The only real problem I have with their representation of the book is their treatment of Eponine, the lyrics making a bookish performance like Adam Jacobs' awkward as he tries to get around the "OMG look they're BEST friends and they totally could have hooked up if it weren't for Cosette!!" lyrics.
[/dead horse] |
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| Quique |
I really don't have a problem with the musical at all. I think the musical is brilliant as a stand alone piece. They did a pretty good job condensing it to a 3 hour show, imo. I don't think it's possible for me to dislike the show, no matter what. I'm a hopeless fanatic, lol. | ||||||
| Orestes Fasting |
Of course the musical is a fine adaptation. I'd like to see anyone here do a better job of condensing 1500 pages into a three-hour musical. But on the points where the musical does diverge from the book, book-canon trumps musical-canon--and the characterization of Javert is one of those points of diversion.
(As for AmZ, I take it with a grain--no, a big giant block--of salt every time a fanfiction author claims to know a character better than the author who wrote him. Particularly antagonists and antiheroes. Particularly when the version she writes bears only a passing resemblance to canon. Not to mention that having a black-and-white view of morality isn't necessarily incompatible with having a flair for the dramatic, or liking a bit of grim humor at your quarry's expense.) |
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| Quique |
I agree. The musical characterizations are inferior to the novel's. Given the complexity of the novel, it's likely most adaptations will never do it complete justice.
Unless we fans compose and fill in the missing parts and details, lol. Where's Monsieur D'Arque when you need him? XD |
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| lesmisloony |
Nonononono, I absolutely agree. I love the musical, and I've seen every region one DVD of the various movie adaptations, and fully agree that the musical is one of the best, most accurate adaptations there is.
That's what I was saying. Or trying to say. |
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| actor |
Oh OK. But I've never read the novel, and this is a forum for the play so that's all I have to go off. |
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| lesmisloony |
 Yeah, but it's the Les Mis fandom. Welcome.
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| Quique |
I am so grateful for the recent emphasis on the novel on this forum. I think it has taken this place from a monotonous dead horse topic dumping ground, to a far more interesting forum.
Unlike the Wicked forum, we are all mature enough to express our views without tearing each other apart. There are some really hardcore novel aficionados here. That's great. And some crazy musical version enthusiasts (me  ). Great that we can co-exist in harmony.
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| lizavert |
I'm so glad I found this place a few days ago. Everyone really seems to understand all the concepts in both the book and the musical. 
And on the topic. I have to agree with Orestes Fasting. I read AmZ's profile on ff.net and I couldn't help thinking that it seemed off. I always thought that Javert's black and white worldview and his (I think) dry sense of humor are really two sides of the same coin. And to a certain extent this applies to the musical as well. The "you'll wear a different chain" line comes to my mind. |
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| Mistress |
I think I understand what you're saying....but the show was Valjean's story, so I can see why the show only had the Valjean-obsessive side of Javert...though I agree that it was kind of unrealistic that Javert would chase a low0life parole breaker non-stop for 20 years. That being said, I lover Javert for being such a complex character. He has a duty to uphold morality and the law, but yet jhis beliefs get crushed when a man he believes to be evil shows goddnessa nd lets him live. After that, everything is pretty much fallen apart for Javert and he sees no way out but to die. I do have ione little question though. If Javert was such an uptight, morale and religious guy, why did he stoop to suicide? Did he see that as less evil then choosing between lettign Valjean go or apprehending him? |
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| bigR |
I agree. I was lurking for several days before registering. At first I did not feel like doing it, because although in real life I am the most communicative and talkative person (and I mean grantaire-talkative  ), I usually am awfullly shy on the internet.
But who can resist a bunch of people able to talk about a forgotten movie from the 30s, obscure mythological references and enjolras preferences in bed with the same enthousiasm? -and on the topic: yes, in the musical, religious and at the same time suicidal javert clash a little bit. But you can always argue that since he has lost his fanatical faith in justice he's also lost his religious faith... |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Top. Totally a top. 
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| Mistress |
erm...I read the guy's analysis...it was quite good, but then he mentioned something about Javert not being white...someone care to clarify? |
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| lesmisloony |
Javert's mommy was a gypsy. So.
And the reason I rushed to embrace AmZ's portrayal of Javert was because I tend to trust anyone who seems to have done a bunch of research on a character... so I didn't double-check on her ideas. And her fic always seems good. But I only pay slightly more attention to Javert than I do Les Amis, which means I try to avoid him entirely unless I'm writing sillyfic. |
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| curlyhairedsoprano91 |
Someone please explain why that made me laugh really hard? |
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| Mistress |
So...being a gypsy, means he was dark-skinned, but still European/Caucasian in features?
Meh...It's all so confusing and unimportant. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Oh sweet, so you'd trust me if I told you that Enjolras' chastity was obviously Hugo's way of denying his story's gay undertones to a homophobic society, and that the Enjolras he actually wrote seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time touching other men, so obviously he meant for the boy to be Grantaire's lover and I've just taken the liberty of writing fic the way Hugo really meant them to be instead of the way he eventually wrote them? I mean, I could totally support this with examples from the text. And point out the subliminal mpreg imagery connected to the "Citizen, my mother is the republic" scene. Which wouldn't make it right, but would certainly make it in a similar spirit of cracked-out revisionism as AmZ's profile. |
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| lesmisloony |
Probably.
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| Orestes Fasting |
....well shit, maybe I should've actually argued that before saying flat out that it was a crock.
The scene in question, by the way: The wild and tender accents with which Combeferre sang communicated to this couplet a sort of strange grandeur. Marius, thoughtfully, and with his eyes diked on the ceiling, repeated almost mechanically: "My mother?--" At that moment, he felt Enjolras' hand on his shoulder. "Citizen," said Enjolras to him, "my mother is the Republic." FADE TO BLACK, CUE PORNO MUSIC Next chapter: That evening left Marius profoundly shaken, and with a melancholy shadow in his soul. He felt what the earth may possibly feel, at the moment when it is torn open with the iron, in order that grain may be deposited within it; it feels only the wound; the quiver of the germ and the joy of the fruit only arrive later. OMG MPREG (Yes, I'm feeling silly today.) |
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| bigR |
just to make it all even more confusing and unimportant: they are plenty of blond haired light-eyed gipsies. |
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| lesmisloony |
If you'd argued with enough conviction, Orestes, I would probably have just agreed... ...but maybe not once you got into the mpreg... ...still, I don't know... it might have happened *wishy-washy* |
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| bigR |
Good heavens, you scared me! I was going so quickly through the thread that at first I didn't realize you were being ironic and I was on the verge of start throwing at you I don't know how many examples of open references to homosexual relations in 19th century french litterature... Luckily, your second paragraph enlightened me on time... |