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| Monsieur D'Arque |
Les Miserables: Opera or Rock?I was having this discussion with my voice professor the other day- Les Mis, when written, was an attempt at ALW-style rock opera, which has evolved into a "popera" in today's world.Do you think the foundation of Les Mis is its rock roots or its opera pretensions? And which area should be favored by the voices of the cast? |
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| jackrussell |
I think its strength is that it ties both traditions. It tells a story exclusively through song, which comes from the operatic tradition, but it uses popular music in order to do so. I hate the term "crossover", but it is a good blend of high art and popular culture.
Obviously it wasn't the first musical to do this but at the time of its premiere I'd say it was the most sophisticated example of its genre. Also it's found a place in our culture because the operatic tradition has moved so far away from the popular taste that many modern operas are almost unlistenable to anybody who doesn't have a degree in music, whereas in the 19th century, when opera was supposedly a more elitist art form, composers were writing stuff that was actually much easier to enjoy. As for the voices, I'll leave that for the singers here to contribute more informed opinions than mine, except to say that personally I prefer classically-trained voices; but when singing Les Mis classical singers shouldn't approach it as if they were singing an opera, they should remember that the music is pop music first and foremost. Also of course Thenardier and Gavroche need a rougher edge than Cosette and Marius. |
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| Oli-Ol |
I agree completely. Also, Eponine should be rougher than Cosette. I've always seen Javert and possibly Valjean as being more 'rocky' but I would say it is up to the actors and the way they present the characters. | ||
| KristinT |
I'd call it a through-sung musical. Or an operetta. Actually I'd call it whatever Boublil and Schonberg call it. The pop/rock elements are definitely a bit stronger in the original French concept album which is quite cool in its own, strange way. | ||
| MariekeLovesEnjolras |
Probably Operetta would be a name that suits Les Mis, because it's all sung. Anyway, maybe Les Mis can't be placed in a "box" and is an absolutely brilliant mix of various styles... | ||
| jackrussell |
I don't think "operetta" is an appropriate description for Les Mis. The term is usually used to refer to Gilbert & Sullivan type shows, i.e. light hearted with plenty of comedy - which is not how most people would see Les Mis! Operettas are also usually sung by opera singers, whereas Les Mis isn't. The absence of spoken dialogue in Les Mis doesn't really help to classify it. Operettas usually include spoken dialogue. For that matter, some operas (e.g. Fidelio, Carmen) include spoken dialogue as well. The main point is whether the music tells the story, or merely enhances it. West Side Story is a musical because a crucial piece of the drama, the final scene, is entirely spoken. Whereas Fidelio is an opera, because although it does include dialogue to advance the plot, all the crucial points of the drama are told through the music. As MLE says, and as I said above, Les Mis's strength is that it defies traditional genres. However, if we have to label it, I would go with "pop opera" or "popular opera", because that's basically what it is - an opera with popular music. Any other, more established name carries too much baggage which is bound to include something that doesn't fit Les Mis. |
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| MariekeLovesEnjolras |
I'm sorry  You're right.
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| Artemis Entreri |
Operettas are scary things. They have stupid plot, annoying stereotypical characters and they take place in the good ol' Monarchy era. *spits*
They have nothing to do with German Singspiel or French op�ra-comique which include dialogues, too. Well... Cats or JCS are through-sung, too. |
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| music is my life!!! |
it's a pop-rock opera
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| Eponine93 |
Popoprock I think "sung-through rock musical" proabbly describes it the best, although the term is quite lenghy and at the same time quite vague. Additionally, it brings to mind images of shows like Rent or Spring Awakening, which just aren't really the same genre of theatre... The best term I think is probably "unique" |
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| jackrussell |
Les Mis doesn't actually feature much (or indeed any) "rock" music though, when you think to most people rock music means electric guitars and backbeats.
Its rock origins are only really apparent when you listen to the original French version, which has more of a rock sound to some of the songs. Well, as close to rock as the French get, anyway. 
It's quite an interesting progression, especially when you take La Revolution Francaise into account as evidence of where the composer started out from. It has some very hard-rocking moments. Although I suspect that the music of those was written by Raymond Jeannot and CMS did the ballads - there are two very different styles in that show. |
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| music is my life!!! |
in the OLC there's alot of specific 80's instruments (listen to the opeing for example... all those keybopards/synthesisers). You tend to get alot more of those in pop than rock plus, loads of pop singers have played eppy, so.... i rest my case
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| jackrussell |
Agreed, it's definitely pop in its style - in fact it has much of the distinctive sound of French pop (Charles Aznavour, Edith Piaf), only with more depth.
I guess you're right about the synthesizers on OLC giving it a typically 80s sound, although I did wonder if they're primarily there just to bulk out the sound, i.e. to make a pit band of about thirty sound like a full symphony orchestra. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
In general, I don't think the show 'should' be performed closer to one influence or another, I think the individual productions should make that decision for themselves. A rock-orchestrated Les Mis has the potential to be awesome, but I wouldn't want every single new production to do it, because it would get old and cheesy really fast.
What would be interesting is a version with classically-trained singers and rock orchestrations... and I would kill babies to be able to see the OFC version of 'Look Down' live. |
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| jackrussell |
This raises an interesting question. Several people, including me, have said on another topic (the movie version) that it's important to respect the original score. So to what extent in subsequent productions should the orchestrations be regarded as part of the original score? I.e. if you leave the words and melodies alone, is it acceptable to re-orchestrate, to go for a more contemporary sound, a more classical sound, a more rock sound, or whatever? Alternatively, is it only acceptable to change the orchestrations to fit the size of the pit and the number of musicians you can afford? For classical composers, the ability to orchestrate well is an important part of the composer's skill. After all, many people can write nice tunes and chord progressions - the ability to arrange them successfully for a full orchestra is another skill entirely and an important part of the professional composer's toolbox. Musical theatre is different - it is very rare for composers to orchestrate their own work. In that case, is it OK to say the orchestrations serve only a functional purpose, rather than being a key part of the composer's artistic vision, and as such it's OK to change them for subsequent productions? My own answer would be "no" but I'm interested in other people's opinions... |
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| Monsieur D'Arque |
When they are reorchestrated, it's usually with the full approval of the people in charge, composer, lyricist, rightsholder, etc.
Sometimes it's unnecessary, but other times, it's a vast improvement. The example commonly brought up is Cy Coleman's show "Little Me." Though Coleman is a brilliant jazz composer, some of the orchestrations in that show (one of his weaker ones, though with several great standout numbers) were mediocre, even outdated by the time they'd premiered. Thus, in 1999, the show was reorchestrated, sometimes subtly, other times drastically. One number, a vaudeville two-step between two women, was completely rewritten as a jazzy big band full-ensemble number, and a VERY slow soft-shoe waltz sung in unison by all the men was changed to an upbeat, comic production number. Was it "True to the original?" Maybe not. But was it generally considered better, by the public, critics and composer? Yes. Decide for yourselves, then. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
I would say it's OK if they get permission, if the changes serve a legitimate artistic purpose, and if they have the resources (good musicians, a skilled orchestrator) to not half-ass it or screw it up horribly. "We don't want to pay all those musicians and a decent-sized orchestra wouldn't fit in the Broadhurst anyway" is not a legitimate artistic purpose. |
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| dolbinau |
Isn't this practically the exact reason for a lot of Doyle productions? And at least in the case of Sweeney the response wasn't terrible. (not sure about the productions that never made it here) |
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| jackrussell |
True (although it is a practical one). The one I hate the most is the "a decent-sized orchestra wouldn't fit in the Queens Theatre so we have to use the Sinfonia" outrage. |
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| lisaxyz |
What scale should I use for Metal and Rock music? What kind of scale is best to play alternative metal and rock music. Example of bands are like good charlotte, avenged sevenfold.
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| Vichysois |
.... 
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| LeocadiaBegbick |
I have always found it bizarre that anyone would attach "opera" to Les Miz. There is nothing operatic about it whatsoever. None of the music requires any sort of operatic technique. The score is pure pop. |