Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| Salome |
If Ive hated the role eacxh time..its the character..not the actress. her songs are whiny pieces of crap too. I mean please..On My Own is one oft he most cheesy,whiny,melodramatic pieces of garbage out there. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
I rather liked Melissa Lyons when I saw her... of course, I usually take a nap during On My Own and spend the second half of A Little Fall of Rain staring at barricade boy bum, but from the parts where I was actually paying attention to her she seemed good. |
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| LesMisForever |
OF...Do you actually like anything in "Les Miserables" apart from Enjolras?  
Ok, so "On My Own" is "garbage" according to you Salome, and sleep inducing according to you OF. Fine! can you ladies tell me what do you consider a good song (not theoretically, but an existing one) for someone in Eponine's situation? I think the music of "On my own" alone makes it worthy. |
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| Salome |
Losing My Mind from Follies is a masterpice of longing for someone unatainable. | ||||||
| music is my life!!! |
WoW! i thought i was only in the minority of not liking Frances Ruffle! 
I think she might be good as other characetrs but she was awarded for best featured actress in a musical, not best featured singer. IMO, Lea's way better on the singing side but they both think about the charcters that they play really deeply. Another point is that Lea was chosen for Eponine in the dream cast - emphasising the dream part of it. |
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| eponine5 |
There never will be any actor who is perfect for everyone, just as there won't ever be a character which absolutely everyone likes. I do wonder, though, whether Eponine would have been less bashed if she had never become so insanely popular. If she was a character with the amount of fame as, say, Fantine, then I'm not saying that she would be liked by more people, but she might get less openly violent hatred.
Actually, then again, the violent seething hatred might be needed to counter the sickly: "OMG, I LOVE Eponine! OMG, my life is, like, exactly the same as Eponine's! OMG, I am Eponine!!!" Hmmm, at least we can see that the Eponine argument has enough power to hijack Gavroche's thread. 
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| Eponine93 |
I think one of the great things about Les Mis is that there's a character for nearly every type of person to relate to. Eponine just happens to be the character a lot of teenage girls relate to because a lot of teenage girls go through what the lyrics of "On My Own" suggest when they're used out of context. I think a lot of time teenaged girls (like me, I admit) are so busy listening to "On My Own" and none of Eponine's other songs and they end up going around "OMFG! EPONINE IS MY IDOL! SHE IS ME!" because they feel they can relate to "On My Own."
If teenaged girl says anything about relating to the character of Eponine, she usually doesn't have a great grasp for the character. She can relate to the lyrics of "On My Own"... after the introduction. |
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| Quique |
I tend to want to give fans more credit and assume they like the character, not so much because she fulfills some selfish need to feel sorry for oneself, but more because of what the character actually stands for.
But if people want to interpret the character as a whiney brat, much like themselves, well, so be it. To each his own. Personally, I see her as anything but a whiney brat. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
Yes, I just don't talk as much about the rest.  Even if I didn't, hey, having one person who doesn't pay attention to anything but barricade boys adds variety to a fandom that would otherwise not pay attention to anything but Eponine.
Didn't we originally get sidetracked into talking about Eponine when someone mentioned cutting or downsizing her role? Yeah. It's bizarre the vehemence people react with when this is brought up--to listen to some fans, the absence of Eponine was the most important thing wrong with the 1998 movie, which just boggles my mind.
Do you ever see people claiming to relate to Javert? Or Fantine? Or, dare I say it, poor neglected Valjean? |
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| Sweeney Hyde |
^^I claim to relate to Javert! Both he and I are very stong in our faiths. But something happened to both of us that made our worlds fall apart. | ||||||
| Orestes Fasting |
But is that the primary reason you like him? |
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| Sweeney Hyde |
NO!...I like his songs best!
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| Quique |
Actually, don't you think the vehement ones are those whom are suggesting the role should be downsized or cut? I've passionately disapproved of tampering with the orchestrations and constant cuts, what makes anyone think I'm not going to say anything against cutting an entire character out of the show? (even though there isn't any real, imminent threat, it's a good excuse for a stimulating discussion, hehe.) That doesn't necessarily make me an Eponine fanboy or "Eppybopper," lol. 
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| Orestes Fasting |
Whoa now, I don't think anyone's suggesting it should be cut. XD I just find it interesting that people react to the idea of it so violently, when so many characters of approximately the same importance got the chop on the way from book to musical, and so many characters more important than Eponine were reduced to minor roles.
Hell, if I had free reign to direct my own production and do whatever I wanted with it, I'd probably restore all the cuts (except maybe @#$%! Turning). I'd be tempted, though, to replace "On My Own" with "L'un vers l'autre," if for no other reason than that I am so effing sick of OMO. Regardless of whether it's a good song--I did enjoy it the first three dozen times I heard it--overexposure has killed it for me. |
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| Quique |
lol...@#$%! Turning.
Well, if I had free reign to direct my own, I'd restore the original "On My Own" orchestrations. lol. Because, I really do LOVE that darn song's orchestrations. I don't know why. I love them far more than what the song is about. Seriously, the song is nowhere nearly as enjoyable to me with the new orchestrations. God, I really hope they don't retain the revised ones should the show tour, whether equity or non-equity.
As for getting sick of certain songs, I know what you mean, as I find myself wishing "The Runaway Cart" sequence would come and go quickly sometimes, hehe. The same goes for "Every Day." Not really a case of over-exposure for me. I think it has to do with those moments sort of slowing the show down. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
I've never liked the Runaway Cart scene. And the slow-motion blocking for it just looks silly. | ||||||
| EponinesRain |
Wow, really?? I didn't mind the Eponine cut that much, but I was greatly miffed that they got rid of the Thenardiers and his gang altogether. That, and the fact that Enjolras was reduced to two lines or something like that. But, I'm sure there's another place and time to discuss the never-ending flaws of that movie.
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| LesMisForever |
I didn't say that! 
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| EponinesRain |
Oops! Sorry! Yeah, I quoted the wrong poster. This quote was by Orestes Fasting. I just changed it. 
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| LesMisForever |
EponineRain....That is Ok
OF...I don't blame you for liking Enjolras btw. That vest alone can turn heads  . Even I might look hot in it .
I hope i am not coming cross as "vehemently" protesting, because generally speaking i don't insist on my opinions. If anyone was very strong in its language, it was "Salome", but, hey!, that is expected from her .
Salome...i have to admit that i am not familiar with "Follies", but i checked the lyrics of that song. I can't judge the two songs fairly, because i haven't seen "losing my mind" performed, or even heard it. However, based on lyrics only, i don't see much difference to call one a "masterpiece", and the other "garbage". Furthermore, anyone expressing his/her longing can be called by an unsympathetic ear a "Whiner". If you don't feel for that character you will always want to tell him/her to "get a life", or "get over it". |
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| Eponine93 |
I have to admit, the lyrics of "On My Own" aren't that strong. It really is one of my favorite songs, but the lyrics in English are not that good. Sometimes they sum up Eponine's situation, but they can get very annoying, depending on what mood you're in. Sometimes I'll be like practically sobbing and thinking "Eponine, I feel so bad for you, I think I can imagine how you feel" and other times I'll be like, "Oh shove it, there are worst tragedies in the world than Marius not liking you."
I've heard from a lot of people that the French lyrics are much better, but since my mastery of the French language basically consists of "Les Miserables" (and what good will that do me in life if I meet someone fluent only in French and call them a wretched one?) I don't think I'd be able to see the beauty in them. The lyrics to other songs in Les Mis, like Empty Chairs at Empty Tables, are a lot better. I think people can relate to Fantine though, if they think of "I Dreamed A Dream" on a more connotative level. On a literal level... well, we all know what it means and hopefully never will be able to think, "I'm going through the same exact thing as Fantine." But on a figurative level, people can definitely symphasize with a girl having a dream about what men were like, being hurt by a man, still keeping the dream and then having the dream being killed by life. Life hasn't killed the dream I dreamed yet, so I can't symphasize with Fantine. I do admire her greatly though. Javert I feel like I can feel with during his suicide. Not literally. But basically he's saying he just found out that everything he's ever known his entire life is wrong. I've realized that a few times. And I didn't kill myself. But I definitely felt like it. I feel for Valjean during the begining of the show. I like to listen "What Have I Done" whenever I've done something really terrible (the time I kicked a hole in my bedroom wall comes to mind) and can't get my mind off the awfulness of what I've done. And then "Who Am I?"... that's a great song. The only character I feel like I can't symphasize with is Cosette. To an extent, I can sort of feel for the figurative meaning of "Castle on a Cloud" but when Cosette grows up... I just can't feel for her at all. I don't know why. I can't. |
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| Lazarus (Adam G) |
Cosette is an empty vessel through-out the entire show. She's just boring...There's no life in her.
I dislike Eponine, but she at least has more character than Cosette the love-drone. |
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| Jordan |
So anyway, that Gavroche. Like many others, I dislike him because he's played by a child. In the UK, child labour laws are so strict that a child the right age for Gavroche probably plays the role no more than 30 times.
In fact, knowing Cammack, he probably cheats the rules by literally having the actor arrive 10 minutes before he's due on stage. His appearances on stage are probably timed with a stopwatch etc etc so that he's not 'working' more than he's allowed to and they can get the most use out of him. I remember someone on this board once saying that the kid on the CSR if you listen to him when he's getting shot, he sounds like he's straining to go to the toilet! It's difficult for Gavroche to elicit any emotion from me until the scene where he gets shot and I fear that this is just the parent in me making me feel something. Hell, if we can be made to believe that people will just burst into song, why not have an adult play Gavroche? 
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| Quique |
I've always wanted to see a broad-shouldered, big, bold dyke play Valjean.
Don't ask me why. |
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| Orestes Fasting |
The role does occasionally get played by a girl. (Or a very short grown woman, haha.) |
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| Eponine93 |
I think Gavroche is pretty cool because I've had a lot of people look down at me because I'm young. I'm not short or anything, but I'm a teenager so people automatically think I'm not as smart or mature as they are. Especially because I hang around adults a lot; I'm one of those people that sometimes find it easier to have a conversation with someone older than me than someone my own age or younger. I find a lot of people my age really self-absorbed.
Anyway, a lot of times after I have an enlightening conversation with an adult, they'll say: "I didn't expect you to be so mature" or "I didn't realize you were so smart" ect. ect. They judge me because of my age just like other characters judged Gavroche because he's tiny and young. Do you guys hate Gavroche because of the character or because he's played by a kid? The character is pretty kick-a** but I admit, child actors are a bit annoying. Even if they're terrible you feel bad insulting them because they're only little kids. Also, a lot of times their parents push them into the theatre lifestyle without them having a say. |
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| Jordan |
Oh please look me up if you ever come to the UK! Your humour appeals.
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| Jordan |
TBH, Gavroche generally could be so much better but the majority of the time he's being played by a boy who like you say has been pushed forward for the role. Not necessarily 100% suitable for the role but due to the high turnover of boys, "you'll do!". However, had I known at the right point when young Cosette was available, would I have pushed my daughter forward? Of course I bloody would! No, I don't care that she's too tired to get up for school, no, it doesn't matter, it's secondary school that matters. Don't you want to see your daughter/niece/grandaughter/my daughter on stage? What the hell's wrong with you?
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| Lazarus (Adam G) |
I can relate. I'm around 5'5-5'6ish, I look like I'm fourteen. But I give a good performance. All the Gavroches I've seen suck ass. I'm so glad they cut "Little People" from the Broadway Revival. It's an annyoing song.
Rosie O' Donnel...as VAL JEAN!!!!! |
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| Quique |
Valjean really shouldn't have a heavy NY accent.
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| Eponine93 |
Lol. There's a dream cast thread here. What about a nightmare cast? | ||||||
| JulieJordan |
I have a programme from the early '90s that I got for 10p in a charity shop and one of the female ensemble members was listed as "Ensemble/Gavroche at certain performances.' Liza Hayden, I think that was her name. |
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| The Very Angry Woman |
Yep, that's her. Bobbie Chatt also played Gavroche in a pinch: http://www.stephenscarpulla.com/trivia2.htm In the US, only the girls tall enough to meet child labor requirements understudy Gavroche. (A regulation involving the safety of the barricade.) |
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| olly |
*Labour. Just kidding. I sometimes put either, that's why I hate growing up in both countries!
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| Elin |
http://www.stephenscarpulla.com/trivia2.htm That was actually created by me. Bobbie gave me permission to use the story on my old site. While it's mostly Bobbie's own words, it was edited by me (including breaking the story into paragraphs as well as adding a few explanatory notes in brackets, the intro and the picture). http://leonora_christine.tripod.com/bobbiegavroche.html Months later I found the exact same thing on the SS site. Yes, I e-mailed them, but never heard back. *** For a while in 1986, two of three London Gavroches were female - but unlike Liza Hayden, Zoe Hart was still a little girl. LH did look really young though. I have a One Day More picture where you'd think there are two Gavroches. |
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| The Miserable |
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| EponinesRain |
Hrm, The Megamusical by Jessica Sternfeld says that Boublil saw Oliver , which reminded him of Hugo's own Artful Dodger: Gavroche. Then, "an entire musical based on Hugo's epic quickly took shape in his mind..." Looks like we should give more credit to little Gavroche! The musical crystallized around him! Okay, maybe that's going a little far, but it's pretty interesting to see how Boublil got an initial inspiration for Les Mis through him.
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| Quique |
^ Yeah, that was one of my questions in the "Test Your Knowledge" thread. I guess I'm one of those fans that love everything about the show. Every character, every song, I fully appreciate every tiny little aspect of the show (c'mon, who else do you know of who talks at length about stuff such as the orchestrations and different versions of John Napier's set, hehe.) And I love Gavroche, even though he can be portrayed annoyingly at times.
I recently heard about that book. I've been searching for it at local libraries but no luck. Let us know if it's worth buying after you're done with it. Would love to know more about it.
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| Hans |
What is that book like? Is it good? Is it a critical discussion of the megamusical or just a defence for it? |
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| EponinesRain |
Oh man! You guys seem to already know everything about the show! Well, sorry for bringing it up again, blah! It was new info to me, anyway!
I've only read half the chapter about Les Mis so far, but the book offers a pretty thorough analysis about megamusicals. Sternfeld covers each musical's inception, with a brief background of the creators, what inspired them, how they funded it, who was involved in the production, how it was initially received. She also observes why these musicals can be called "megamusicals," pulling info from cultural, social, and financial perspectives. Then she goes into a much deeper analysis about the structure of the orchestrations/libretto and the plot. For example, she studies the different leitmotifs, staging, and the general frame of the show. I found out about recurring melodies that I didn't even notice before! So, she doesn't really go much into the psychology or the emotions of each character or the diegesis, but more about the musical notation of the show. It's very interesting to me, but I wouldn't buy the book simply b/c I don't care much for the other musicals she covers: JCS, Cats, POTO...and...oh wait. The last three sections are devoted to Other Musicals in the 1980s; in the 1990s; and in the 21st Century. Hrm, I'll have to read those first to decide if I'd buy it. By the way, she argues that Les Mis is "the most successful musical of all time!" The book cover is also a scene from the barricades with the 2006 West End cast! You can see Hayden Tee and Shaun Escoffrey, yay! (There's also minor ALW bashing, haha...)
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