Eppie-Sue
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I would have JVJ, Javert and Enjolras sing the "Tomorrow is the Judgement Day" line in ODM. As simple as that.
hmpf. It would work so well. Especially with the "how long before the Jugdement Day...?" in "Look Down". *folds arms* Shoot me.
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flying_pigs
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Yes!
I've always wanted that!
And perhaps a few lines in the One Day More section at the end, perhaps in the gaps that Eponine doesn't sing?
Soo:
Ep: One more day all on my own
Enj: At the barricade of freedom
Ep: What a life I might have known
Enj: Will you take your place with me!
It wouldn't make any sense but I just always wanted Enjolras to sing in that bit, especially as the other principles do!
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Vanessa20
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I've got one.
Maybe this is just my Asperger's, but I've always found Marius' stance in terms of his whole Love-vs-the Cause conflict to be kind of confusing. Maybe it's meant to be that way, because he's confused, but whatever. I know how it is in the book (he can't afford to follow Cosette, he thinks she's already gone thanks to Eponine, and goes to the barricade to die, etc). But in the musical, he actively chooses to go to the barricade instead of following Cosette, and writes that he prays that God will bring him home to be with her, and yet later he's suddenly moaning "Do I care if I should die, now she goes across the sea, etc." I think to myself "Stop whining, doltboy, you chose this!" and I don't get why one minute he apparently has hope of finding her after the barricade, but the next it's gone.
I'd like to make either one of two possible changes.
1) Change the text of his letter to something more along the lines of "goodbye forever, I'm sorry for choosing to give up our love, but I need to take a stand against injustice," and then leave in his suicidal moaning at the barricade.
Or
2) Don't change the letter, but change "Do I care if I should die, etc" to something like "I pray that I survive so I can seek out Cosette, she's waiting for me."
Take your pick.
I know that neither option is quite true to the Brick, but no less so than any other aspects of musical!Marius.
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Muscialperformer92
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| Vanessa20 wrote: | I've got one.
Maybe this is just my Asperger's, but I've always found Marius' stance in terms of his whole Love-vs-the Cause conflict to be kind of confusing. Maybe it's meant to be that way, because he's confused, but whatever. I know how it is in the book (he can't afford to follow Cosette, he thinks she's already gone thanks to Eponine, and goes to the barricade to die, etc). But in the musical, he actively chooses to go to the barricade instead of following Cosette, and writes that he prays that God will bring him home to be with her, and yet later he's suddenly moaning "Do I care if I should die, now she goes across the sea, etc." I think to myself "Stop whining, doltboy, you chose this!" and I don't get why one minute he apparently has hope of finding her after the barricade, but the next it's gone.
I'd like to make either one of two possible changes.
1) Change the text of his letter to something more along the lines of "goodbye forever, I'm sorry for choosing to give up our love, but I need to take a stand against injustice," and then leave in his suicidal moaning at the barricade.
Or
2) Don't change the letter, but change "Do I care if I should die, etc" to something like "I pray that I survive so I can seek out Cosette, she's waiting for me."
Take your pick.
I know that neither option is quite true to the Brick, but no less so than any other aspects of musical!Marius. |
Oh I never really thought of that- but you are so right! It is rather confusing. I think that the letter should be changed in some way, with him writing something like "I hope that I survive so we can meet again"- I don't know..
I think they want us to believe that Cosette has no choice but to go with Valjean, and therefor Marius don't care if he is dead or alive because there is nothing he can do to make her stay- and he can't follow her either because of valjean- But the letter doesn't make sense at all.. how would he come home to someone who lives so far away- and if that was possible, why did he then go to the barricade in the first place? Wasn't that because he couldn't be with cosette?
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MajorTordoArthur
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I'd also cut turning, and try to insert a sc�ne concerning Enjolras' execution, with or without Grantaire.
Also, reinstall some of the barbican lyrics(Plumet attack, Fantine's arrest, A heart full of love, Dog eats dog, I saw him once, In my life, Stars, The Robbery).
Shorten the Prologue a little(Inn sc�ne), if possible shorten At the end of the day a little(I think it's a tad too long), cut the locket-selling, cut the pimp/prostitutes in Look Down(I think that it was perfect as it was on the OLC), change the ABC caf� to match the one on the OFC(I loved it so much),
Try to give Enjolras' lines in the last part of One Day More! where they all sing together, I don't really like Bring him home, but trying to change it would make people want to kill me, Let Prouvaire get shot during the first attack and give his line in Drink with me to Bossuet, deglorify Eponine by cutting Night of Anguish (ALFOR ends, Courfeyrac tries to comfort Marius while an ALFOR instrumental plays, Enjolras giving command to move the body, all without any words, and cut to Valjean's arrival immediately).
That would be it, it's only my opinion though.
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Orestes Fasting
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...you really, seriously want to bring back the awful Barbican lyrics to A Heart Full of Love, the ridiculous disco Amis from the OFC, the anticlimactic OLC ending to Stars, and the super-awkward chorus lines in Fantine's Arrest?
I mean, it's your choice and all that, but... there's a reason most of these things were changed.
Also, the bit with the old hag, the prostitute, and the pimp in Look Down was there in the original Barbican lyrics, it just got cut for the OLC. Besides, that part is useful from a practical standpoint: it gives Valjean and the Th�nardiers more time to change costumes and wigs.
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MajorTordoArthur
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| Orestes Fasting wrote: | ...you really, seriously want to bring back the awful Barbican lyrics to A Heart Full of Love, the ridiculous disco Amis from the OFC, the anticlimactic OLC ending to Stars, and the super-awkward chorus lines in Fantine's Arrest?
I mean, it's your choice and all that, but... there's a reason most of these things were changed.
Also, the bit with the old hag, the prostitute, and the pimp in Look Down was there in the original Barbican lyrics, it just got cut for the OLC. Besides, that part is useful from a practical standpoint: it gives Valjean and the Th�nardiers more time to change costumes and wigs. |
I kinda have a thing for the older recordings, and I liked the lyrics, especially the fact that Stars ends calmer , I don't really know why. About the ABC caf�, I just want it to be longer in terms of lyrics, but the orchestrations should remain the same. and I know that the exchange in Look Down was there on the Barbican recording, and cut for the OLC, but I never really saw it as a piece to give Th�nardier more time to change his clothes, which just changed my opinion on the part.
Also, I think everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and I just thought to share mine.
I also agree with the people who want to replace the bishop with �ponine for the finale
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Eppie-Sue
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But... oh but no, not the Bishop. They'd have to give him a bigger role in the beginning of the musical to make that work. I like that you've got Eponine there for Marius and Fantine for Cosette. The Bishop, as important as he is to Valjean's development and in the book, is not a prominent character in the musical, I'm sorry. As much as I'd love to see it, it wouldn't work. Fantine died for Cosette, Eponine, in the wider sense, died for Marius, there are death scenes for all of them, the audience identifies with Eponine (and as much as Eppieboppers annoy me, too, this is the musical adaptation and not a stage production of the book).
Don't kill me, please.
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Eponines_Hat
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| Quote: | | But... oh but no, not the Bishop. They'd have to give him a bigger role in the beginning of the musical to make that work. I like that you've got Eponine there for Marius and Fantine for Cosette. The Bishop, as important as he is to Valjean's development and in the book, is not a prominent character in the musical, I'm sorry. As much as I'd love to see it, it wouldn't work. Fantine died for Cosette, Eponine, in the wider sense, died for Marius, there are death scenes for all of them, the audience identifies with Eponine |
I agree - infact I was just thinking that exact thing last night at the show. Even though it doesn't make as much sense Brick-wise I really like Eponine being there for Marius
and you know, like, I just really relate to her coz, like, there is this boy I like....ha ha just kidding
I really like the idea of changing the final battle to make it closer to the Brick. I've been wondering what it would be like if they had Grantaire pass out for the big battle and just come to at the end. Sadly, I don't think it would work
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Lauraa
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| Eppie-Sue wrote: | | But... oh but no, not the Bishop. They'd have to give him a bigger role in the beginning of the musical to make that work. I like that you've got Eponine there for Marius and Fantine for Cosette. The Bishop, as important as he is to Valjean's development and in the book, is not a prominent character in the musical, I'm sorry. As much as I'd love to see it, it wouldn't work. |
I agree.
I think that things like that would mean a lot to people who have read the book but for the majority of the audience, it just wouldn't make sense. I'm sure most of them don't even remember the Bishop and they would just be sat there wondering who that random guy is.
And as much as I�d like to see Enjolras and Grantaire dying like they do in the book, I think that it works so much better on stage the way that it is now. I don�t think that many people would pick up on all of the Enjolras/Grantaire subtext so them getting shot together wouldn�t really mean as much to the audience.
Ahhh, I wish that they could do just one performance with lots of things from the book, just for the Brick fangirls like us. 
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aquirkofmatter
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| Lauraa wrote: | | Eppie-Sue wrote: | | But... oh but no, not the Bishop. They'd have to give him a bigger role in the beginning of the musical to make that work. I like that you've got Eponine there for Marius and Fantine for Cosette. The Bishop, as important as he is to Valjean's development and in the book, is not a prominent character in the musical, I'm sorry. As much as I'd love to see it, it wouldn't work. |
I agree.
I think that things like that would mean a lot to people who have read the book but for the majority of the audience, it just wouldn't make sense. I'm sure most of them don't even remember the Bishop and they would just be sat there wondering who that random guy is. |
When I first saw it I have to say I'd probably completely forgotten about the Bishop and his relevance by the time the cafe scenes came around... and at the end I made the Eponine-Marius, Fantine-Cosette connection.
I didn't think it was weird that Eponine was there despite the minimal interaction with JVJ; and I figured that was how it was supposed to be interpreted due to the reaching.
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Elbow
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While as a fan, I agree that it would be nice to have the Bishop at the end, I think a lot of casual audience members probably wouldn't much care about the poignancy of him being there. I think Eponine (while there for Marius) is also there for the audience, so everyone sort of goes "Oh look, that's nice, Eponine's all happy in heaven"... if that makes sense. I don't think people would question her being there, and if I'm honest, I don't think I ever have really.
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l'ivrogne transfigur�
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I don't mind Eponine being there too much, I understand the whole there-for-Marius thing. I just find it a bit odd that she, and Fantine for that matter, offer to lead Valjean to salvation - it makes them seem somehow superior. Maybe I've just misunderstood it a little. It just seems that if anyone were to sing those words it should be someone like the Bishop.
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AzelmaCombeferre9430
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| Eppie-Sue wrote: | ITA on the "Red and Black" thing. *shudders*
| DramaPrincess wrote: |
I LOVE the idea of the Bishop replacing Eponine at the end, she has seemed a random inclusion for so long seeing as she didn't really have any connection with Valjean, but had never even considered the Bishop, top marks for that idea. |
Buuuut then Combeferre wouldn't be in the Finale! Combeferre + Bishop = one actor. |
THANK-YOU!!!!!!!!! Like nobody else acknowledges this! Personally I think we should just forget about Valjean and Javert and the rest and make the musical entirely about Combeferre. it'd be great. really. I'm dead serious here.
Okay, seeing as my Combeferre:The Musical isn't gonna happen I think Cosette needs a more colorful dress. I hate black. Maybe a nice green or blue. I love "I Saw Him Once" and then keep some parts of Cosette's "In My Life" OMO is what got me into Les Mis, so if that was cut, I wouldn't be on this forum currently (nor would I be unhealthly obsessed with fictional french people, hats, or bread...my family would like it cut, since I drive them crazy) However I think the casting for her should be different, to result in fewer pop-princess Eponines. And people listen to the song "Alto's Lament" there are really are very few alto roles out there, and they're usaully kooky, (ex. Ms. Lovett) and evil, (ex. Madame Morrible) ) The olny real "normal" ones are Anita from West Side Story, Jane Erye, and Mary Magdelene from JC Superstar, so we got to leave the altos some good roles And saying "she was the first to fall" kinda bugs me because M. Mabef, Bahorel, and Jehan (*SQUEE!*) all die before her. Which leads me into my next thing GIVE BAHOREL A PART!!!! For Godssake he's so left out! And add Azelma, we need the lone survivng (that we know of) Thenardiar kid. Give her a few lines in "Look Down" or at the Wedding. And 'Parnasse needs some more lines. andCombeferre should have a bigger part. He's really invovled in the Revolution, he's really second in Command. So cut "Turning" and give him back his speech.
Oh and cut "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" Really, Marius, they weren't your friends...
(Well expect for Courfeyrac...)
Yeah cut the "Marius is suddenly a for the Republic and not sudicidal and he and Enjolras are Besties"
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Eppie-Sue
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| AzelmaCombeferre9430 wrote: | | Personally I think we should just forget about Valjean and Javert and the rest and make the musical entirely about Combeferre. it'd be great. really. I'm dead serious here. |
...
Right.
But oh, then "Stars" would be called "Massive, luminous balls of plasma that are held together by gravity" and Susan Boyle would have sung a song called "The good must be innocent, hombre"...
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l'ivrogne transfigur�
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| AzelmaCombeferre9430 wrote: | THANK-YOU!!!!!!!!! Like nobody else acknowledges this! Personally I think we should just forget about Valjean and Javert and the rest and make the musical entirely about Combeferre. it'd be great. really. I'm dead serious here.
Okay, seeing as my Combeferre:The Musical isn't gonna happen I think Cosette needs a more colorful dress. I hate black. Maybe a nice green or blue. I love "I Saw Him Once" and then keep some parts of Cosette's "In My Life" OMO is what got me into Les Mis, so if that was cut, I wouldn't be on this forum currently (nor would I be unhealthly obsessed with fictional french people, hats, or bread...my family would like it cut, since I drive them crazy) However I think the casting for her should be different, to result in fewer pop-princess Eponines. And people listen to the song "Alto's Lament" there are really are very few alto roles out there, and they're usaully kooky, (ex. Ms. Lovett) and evil, (ex. Madame Morrible) ) The olny real "normal" ones are Anita from West Side Story, Jane Erye, and Mary Magdelene from JC Superstar, so we got to leave the altos some good roles And saying "she was the first to fall" kinda bugs me because M. Mabef, Bahorel, and Jehan (*SQUEE!*) all die before her. Which leads me into my next thing GIVE BAHOREL A PART!!!! For Godssake he's so left out! And add Azelma, we need the lone survivng (that we know of) Thenardiar kid. Give her a few lines in "Look Down" or at the Wedding. And 'Parnasse needs some more lines. andCombeferre should have a bigger part. He's really invovled in the Revolution, he's really second in Command. So cut "Turning" and give him back his speech.
Oh and cut "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" Really, Marius, they weren't your friends...
(Well expect for Courfeyrac...)
Yeah cut the "Marius is suddenly a for the Republic and not sudicidal and he and Enjolras are Besties" |
BREATHE!
Basically - you want to make the show 100% book accurate. I'm afraid that's not going to happen - it's impossible to translate such a complex book onto stage in a format that people would understand. And remember that most people who see the show haven't read the book, and some have trouble enough understanding what's going on as it is.
Admittedly lovely idea in principle though ...
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Quique
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You know, I think people are actually moved more by the song rather than Susan's singing. They're just too stupid to know it.
Sure, even I did a little double-take upon first hearing what sounded like a very clear, young voice coming out of her haggish head. In fact, I doubt it really has anything to do with expecting the worst out of someone because they are ugly. How about expecting a middle aged woman to sound like a middle aged woman?
Sorry for the mini Boyle rant.
Anyway, I used to like the idea of the Bishop emerging from the wings at the finale as well. But come to think of it, I think I'd like to keep him as he is--the mysterious, saint-like man that gracefully enters and exits Valjean's life, changing it forever. Having him pop out again would diminish the impact, imo.
I like it as it is with Eponine joining Valjean and Fantine. I love that they are the only ones who share the OMO theme--Valjean in the Prologue; Fantine at her deathbed; and of course, the Eponine's beltfest--it unites them in the end.
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Orestes Fasting
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I still like the idea of the Bishop in the finale. Not as a permanent change to the show or anything, but I'd like to see at least one production use it. Maybe in conjunction with cutting Night of Anguish and generally deflating Eponine's part a little bit, so it would be less jarring.
(Also, guys, the ensemble tracks aren't set in stone. You could have the bishop double as Babet or something so all the barricade boys would be there in the finale.)
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AzelmaCombeferre9430
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� wrote: | | AzelmaCombeferre9430 wrote: | THANK-YOU!!!!!!!!! Like nobody else acknowledges this! Personally I think we should just forget about Valjean and Javert and the rest and make the musical entirely about Combeferre. it'd be great. really. I'm dead serious here.
Okay, seeing as my Combeferre:The Musical isn't gonna happen I think Cosette needs a more colorful dress. I hate black. Maybe a nice green or blue. I love "I Saw Him Once" and then keep some parts of Cosette's "In My Life" OMO is what got me into Les Mis, so if that was cut, I wouldn't be on this forum currently (nor would I be unhealthly obsessed with fictional french people, hats, or bread...my family would like it cut, since I drive them crazy) However I think the casting for her should be different, to result in fewer pop-princess Eponines. And people listen to the song "Alto's Lament" there are really are very few alto roles out there, and they're usaully kooky, (ex. Ms. Lovett) and evil, (ex. Madame Morrible) ) The olny real "normal" ones are Anita from West Side Story, Jane Erye, and Mary Magdelene from JC Superstar, so we got to leave the altos some good roles And saying "she was the first to fall" kinda bugs me because M. Mabef, Bahorel, and Jehan (*SQUEE!*) all die before her. Which leads me into my next thing GIVE BAHOREL A PART!!!! For Godssake he's so left out! And add Azelma, we need the lone survivng (that we know of) Thenardiar kid. Give her a few lines in "Look Down" or at the Wedding. And 'Parnasse needs some more lines. andCombeferre should have a bigger part. He's really invovled in the Revolution, he's really second in Command. So cut "Turning" and give him back his speech.
Oh and cut "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" Really, Marius, they weren't your friends...
(Well expect for Courfeyrac...)
Yeah cut the "Marius is suddenly a for the Republic and not sudicidal and he and Enjolras are Besties" |
BREATHE!
Basically - you want to make the show 100% book accurate. I'm afraid that's not going to happen - it's impossible to translate such a complex book onto stage in a format that people would understand. And remember that most people who see the show haven't read the book, and some have trouble enough understanding what's going on as it is.
Admittedly lovely idea in principle though ... |
"Breathe"-I get that sooo much.
Yeah it would be hard. *in a sing-song-y luna lovegood voices* Which is why i prefer to live in my on little world and talk to the voices in my head, where everyone agrees with me. hehe jk. Yeah, I realzie they have to change a lot whne apadting musicals for stage. Like they changed a ton for Wicked. oh well, back to the dark Combeferre-centered corners of my mind...
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Ulkis
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| Quote: | | But... oh but no, not the Bishop. They'd have to give him a bigger role in the beginning of the musical to make that work. I like that you've got Eponine there for Marius and Fantine for Cosette. |
I don't view it like that. Honestly, at that point for me it's "the story's ended, time to bring on all the characters and sing a Broadway finale", so I don't really care if Eponine knew Valjean or not. Also, I don't like the idea that Eponine came for Marius there. Fantine didn't even come for Cosette really, but for Valjean. I would just feel so bad for Eponine! She's a ghost and she's still stalking the guy who doesn't care.
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l'ivrogne transfigur�
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| Ulkis wrote: | | Honestly, at that point for me it's "the story's ended, time to bring on all the characters and sing a Broadway finale", so I don't really care if Eponine knew Valjean or not. |
But then you could just have Eponine in the chorus with Enjolras and the students. I mean, Patron-Minette are there (even if only for the curtain call), along with all the poor women and urchins etc, so she wouldn't look too out of place. There must be some meaning to her being there if she is given such a prominent role in the finale.
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Ulkis
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The meaning being she had a large part and she died for love, so they wanted to bring her back at the end.  I just hate the thought of poor ghost Eponine STILL hanging around because she can't let go of Marius.
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Orestes Fasting
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I'm dragging this thread up from its peaceful rest because I think it's one of the more interesting threads on the forum and the newbies should see it, and because it seemed like the best place to revive the old Bishop vs. Eponine in the finale question.
I noticed something the other day: the group in the finale consists of, clockwise from the right, Fantine, Cosette, Marius, Eponine, and Jean Valjean. Assuming Eponine is standing in as an emblem of the Idyll in the Rue Plumet and the Epic in the Rue Saint-Denis, that means the five sub-volumes of the book are represented in the finale.
Now, my position here has not changed. I would love to see at least one production have the Bishop come out for Valjean at the end instead of Eponine. The finale should be about Valjean, whose story is the vehicle through which the rest of the story is told, and it would be nice to not only acknowledge the Bishop's role in that, but also have Valjean's story begin and end with his presence. But the sub-volumes-of-the-novel thing is interesting food for thought, and I think it's neat that even after 100+ viewings of the show I'm still noticing new little touches like that.
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Ulkis
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| Quote: | | I noticed something the other day: the group in the finale consists of, clockwise from the right, Fantine, Cosette, Marius, Eponine, and Jean Valjean. Assuming Eponine is standing in as an emblem of the Idyll in the Rue Plumet and the Epic in the Rue Saint-Denis, that means the five sub-volumes of the book are represented in the finale. |
Nice catch! That's pretty neat. I don't know if I think they did it on purpose that way, although I don't think it's impossible.
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Javvyshomegirl73
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[quote="Ulkis"] | Quote: | | I noticed something the other day: the group in the finale consists of, clockwise from the right, Fantine, Cosette, Marius, Eponine, and Jean Valjean. Assuming Eponine is standing in as an emblem of the Idyll in the Rue Plumet and the Epic in the Rue Saint-Denis, that means the five sub-volumes of the book are represented in the finale. |
Cool! You have a good eye!
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Roseinmisery
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| Orestes Fasting wrote: |
I noticed something the other day: the group in the finale consists of, clockwise from the right, Fantine, Cosette, Marius, Eponine, and Jean Valjean. Assuming Eponine is standing in as an emblem of the Idyll in the Rue Plumet and the Epic in the Rue Saint-Denis, that means the five sub-volumes of the book are represented in the finale. |
You know, I hadn't thought of that. Do you think they did it on purpose? I have to say I always thought they put Eponine in the finale to reassure the audience that she (and poor old Fantine) had "gone to a better place". I have to agree with you that it is a little odd that it was Eponine, a girl Valjean had only seen once or twice, taking him to heaven rather than the guy who was responsible for redeeming him. I remember Broadway Abridged making fun of this particular detail. I admit having the Bishop would make more sense, it being Valjean's story and all. Still, I rather like having Eponine in the finale. After all, who would harmonise with Fantine?
Wait, I've just had a thought! Given that in the musical the Bishop is usually a younger man, it would be unlikely that he even died. Wouldn't having the Bishop there confuse the audience if there is no indication that he is actually dead?
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Vanessa20
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| Roseinmisery wrote: | | Wait, I've just had a thought! Given that in the musical the Bishop is usually a younger man, it would be unlikely that he even died. Wouldn't having the Bishop there confuse the audience if there is no indication that he is actually dead? |
One change that I would make to the musical (though it's not really a change, just what I'd do if I were in charge of casting). It would probably be hard to do, but this is a fantasy thread anyway: CONSISTENTLY CAST ACTORS WHO LOOK THE AGES OF HUGO'S CHARACTERS.
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Roseinmisery
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| Vanessa20 wrote: | | Roseinmisery wrote: | | Wait, I've just had a thought! Given that in the musical the Bishop is usually a younger man, it would be unlikely that he even died. Wouldn't having the Bishop there confuse the audience if there is no indication that he is actually dead? |
One change that I would make to the musical (though it's not really a change, just what I'd do if I were in charge of casting). It would probably be hard to do, but this is a fantasy thread anyway: CONSISTENTLY CAST ACTORS WHO LOOK THE AGES OF HUGO'S CHARACTERS. |
I'm with you there. I read the Brick before seeing the musical, so it was a bit of a shock to to find that the Bishop seemed to be in his thirties. Saying that though, I'd be a bit uncomfortable if Cosette actually looked like she was fifteen.
Oh and that reminds me! I want "I saw him once" back. Great song, willl never understand why it was cut.
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Monsieur D'Arque
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If the Bishop is too old, he is only usable in the opening and (theoretical) closing. Unless he doubles as Thenardier... weird thought.
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Orestes Fasting
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| Monsieur D'Arque wrote: | | If the Bishop is too old, he is only usable in the opening and (theoretical) closing. Unless he doubles as Thenardier... weird thought. |
Why? There are plenty of mixed crowd scenes in the first act. After Look Down he can play a member of Th�nardier's gang and a random unnamed insurgent at the barricade.
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Quique
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If they can make chicks play barricade dudes, they can pull off old timers playing something else.
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PureDiamondLight
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| Orestes Fasting wrote: | | . I would love to see at least one production have the Bishop come out for Valjean at the end instead of Eponine. The finale should be about Valjean, whose story is the vehicle through which the rest of the story is told, and it would be nice to not only acknowledge the Bishop's role in that, but also have Valjean's story begin and end with his presence. |
I like the bishop idea. After all, the book makes it clear that the two people that changed Valjean's life were Cosette and the Bishop. Eponine barely made contact with him in comparison. And, to quote from the final scene:
' "Do you want a priest?"
"I have one," Jean Valjean replied. ... Indeed it is not improbable that the Bishop was present in those last moments of his life. '
So I say cool to the bishop idea! Maybe we should write to CamMack to suggest it 
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Brother Marvin Hinten, S.
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Following that logic, we could stick the senile old Bishop in the bed next to him. 
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High-baritonne
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| Ulla Dance Again! wrote: | Song:
I'd probably cut "Turning".
In my opinion, it only serves as a filler song for "Empty Chairs..."
(That's my own weird preference, though). |
Yes, but many others share your opinion, although I think it is somewhat silly to claim Turning to be the "filler" song of the two, seeing that Turning shows us the wives and girlfriends mourning proses. The lyrics and melody also work beautifully together and shows us their grief which in time turns to hope as the tune speeds up. Turning fits perfectly into the dramaturgy, where as Empty Chairs at Empty Tables is implausible and often shows Marius of as quite a cold-hearted person. I mean, who has just learned that almost everyone they grew up with are dead, just to sit in a caf� and sing a pretty show-tune? I mean come on, no one sings pretty in a time like that. Only problem is, if you try to "act" through "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" to make it sad you end up ruining the song.
To make myself clear: Empty Chairs at Empty Tables is not needed at all, and it was a poor dramaturgic choice in what I believe was an attempt to create a "hit song".
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Orestes Fasting
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Are you being sarcastic? I really, honestly cannot tell. If you aren't, I want some of what you're smoking, or I want to see this musical you're talking about that's called "Les Mis�rables" and has songs called "Turning" and "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" but has nothing to do with the Boublil-Sch�nberg version.
In the original staging, there is nothing to indicate that the women are the insurgents' wives or lovers--in fact, it's implied (through costumes etc) that they're random Parisian women commenting on the events. It doesn't show any sort of process to the mourning, only maudlin lamentation. And lyrically there is no hope present, only (towards the end, with the shift into a major key) dull acceptance of the everyday grind. An it doesn't fit into the dramaturgy--in fact, it undermines all the themes of the novel that the musical was trying to adapt.
Empty Chairs, on the other hand, is a superb song, even if some of the themes it explores also run contrary to the intended message of the show.
| Quote: | | Empty Chairs at Empty Tables is implausible and often shows Marius of as quite a cold-hearted person. I mean, who has just learned that almost everyone they grew up with are dead, just to sit in a caf� and sing a pretty show-tune? I mean come on, no one sings pretty in a time like that. |
This is what makes me suspect you're being sarcastic, because... seriously? Do we have to go back to square one and rehash all the conventions of musical theatre? And did you even bother listening to the lyrics under the "pretty show-tune"? Empty Chairs, far more than Turning, is an expression of grief and survivor's guilt.
Picking nits about time and location seems almost worthless if you're missing the point by so much, but here goes anyway. Marius hasn't "just" learned his friends are dead, it's implied (by the lyrics of Every Day and the fact that he's walking around with a cane, hell even by the lead-out of Turning) that some time has passed and his injuries are starting to heal. In the original staging the space, as in the rest of the musical, is very ill-defined--it could be the caf�, it could be his sickroom and the whole thing is playing out in his head, and in the end I don't think it particularly matters. In the tour Marius has gone back to the site of the barricade to light a candle for them, and while I have issues with that staging, it portrays Marius as pretty much the opposite of cold-hearted and uncaring.
I just have no idea where you're getting this interpretation from. Marius sings a song about his dead friends and his survivor's guilt, therefore he is cold-hearted? What?
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The Very Angry Woman
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| High-baritonne wrote: | | Ulla Dance Again! wrote: | Song:
I'd probably cut "Turning".
In my opinion, it only serves as a filler song for "Empty Chairs..."
(That's my own weird preference, though). |
Yes, but many others share your opinion, although I think it is somewhat silly to claim Turning to be the "filler" song of the two, seeing that Turning shows us the wives and girlfriends mourning proses. The lyrics and melody also work beautifully together and shows us their grief which in time turns to hope as the tune speeds up. |
Read into Turning all you want, but really, it WAS pretty much written as filler. The creative team didn't want to pay the women in the show so much for doing so little, so they wrote them another song.
But it still works.
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Quique
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Rofl. I'm with Orestes on this one, even though I still disagree that there is any inherent undermining of Hugo's message in "Turning."
*Head butts w/ Orestes*
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Orestes Fasting
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| Quique wrote: | Rofl. I'm with Orestes on this one, even though I still disagree that there is any inherent undermining of Hugo's message in "Turning."
*Head butts w/ Orestes* |
*headbutts right back at you*
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High-baritonne
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| Orestes Fasting wrote: | Are you being sarcastic? I really, honestly cannot tell. If you aren't, I want some of what you're smoking, or I want to see this musical you're talking about that's called "Les Mis�rables" and has songs called "Turning" and "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" but has nothing to do with the Boublil-Sch�nberg version.
In the original staging, there is nothing to indicate that the women are the insurgents' wives or lovers--in fact, it's implied (through costumes etc) that they're random Parisian women commenting on the events. It doesn't show any sort of process to the mourning, only maudlin lamentation. And lyrically there is no hope present, only (towards the end, with the shift into a major key) dull acceptance of the everyday grind. An it doesn't fit into the dramaturgy--in fact, it undermines all the themes of the novel that the musical was trying to adapt.
Empty Chairs, on the other hand, is a superb song, even if some of the themes it explores also run contrary to the intended message of the show.
| Quote: | | Empty Chairs at Empty Tables is implausible and often shows Marius of as quite a cold-hearted person. I mean, who has just learned that almost everyone they grew up with are dead, just to sit in a caf� and sing a pretty show-tune? I mean come on, no one sings pretty in a time like that. |
This is what makes me suspect you're being sarcastic, because... seriously? Do we have to go back to square one and rehash all the conventions of musical theatre? And did you even bother listening to the lyrics under the "pretty show-tune"? Empty Chairs, far more than Turning, is an expression of grief and survivor's guilt.
Picking nits about time and location seems almost worthless if you're missing the point by so much, but here goes anyway. Marius hasn't "just" learned his friends are dead, it's implied (by the lyrics of Every Day and the fact that he's walking around with a cane, hell even by the lead-out of Turning) that some time has passed and his injuries are starting to heal. In the original staging the space, as in the rest of the musical, is very ill-defined--it could be the caf�, it could be his sickroom and the whole thing is playing out in his head, and in the end I don't think it particularly matters. In the tour Marius has gone back to the site of the barricade to light a candle for them, and while I have issues with that staging, it portrays Marius as pretty much the opposite of cold-hearted and uncaring.
I just have no idea where you're getting this interpretation from. Marius sings a song about his dead friends and his survivor's guilt, therefore he is cold-hearted? What? |
The problems with Empty Chairs at Empty Tables is just what you wrote: | Orestes Fasting wrote: | | And did you even bother listening to the lyrics under the "pretty show-tune"? |
Yes, I listened to them, and they and the music tell entirely different stories. They don't work together. Turning, on the other hand, has music and lyrics that fit perfectly together. And it works really well!
It does the following:
Show us the time flowing from the fall of the barricade to "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables"
Shows us the reaction of the citizens if I were to agree with you on the women being "random Parisians". If I do not agree it shows how the girlfriends and wives react to their deaths.
Because of the time flowing and the key change we suddenly get a feeling that they have moved on. I agree with you that hopeful was the wrong word, but it does show signs of "a new dawn" if you'd forgive my figure of speech.
And lastly, it leads perfectly into what should have been a Marius just realizing his friends are dead, after recovering from most of his wounds. to realize his friends is dead, because then they would have shown how long it actually took from the barricades fell to Marius getting well enough to receive the news. So, after showing that the citizens / wives / girlfriends have managed to move on, they show that Marius grief in his own way.
Yes, I know that what I just wrote justifies Empty Chairs at Empty Tables, because having Marius grief after turning is brilliant, but the way the show this is poorly written. I am certain that Empty Chairs at Empty Tables was an attempt to write a "popular show-tune" that might become a "hit" like Memory became and "I Dreamed a Dream" has become after all these years. I am not saying that it is bad to write a hit, but it is possible, as they proved with "I Dreamed a Dream", to write a hit which fits the story and actually works.
The only reason people think "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" work dramaturgically is because of the captivating tune, but when really dissected it does not really do what it should have done.
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Monsieur D'Arque
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So if it's the music you don't like, set it to something less "contrived." Something Yoko Ono-y.
And if it's the lyrics you don't like, have him simply howl "They all dieddddddd! They all dieddddd!" Over the music.
Obvious joke.
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Vanessa20
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| High-baritonne wrote: | | I am certain that Empty Chairs at Empty Tables was an attempt to write a "popular show-tune" that might become a "hit" like Memory became and "I Dreamed a Dream" has become after all these years. |
I don't agree with you about "Empty Chairs," but I've sometimes had similar feelings about "Bring Him Home." Not just because Hugo's Valjean hated Marius, but because the lyrics don't even mention the reason why Valjean wants Marius to be saved: for Cosette. And of course, the line "He's like the son I might have known..." comes out of nowhere.
I like "Bring Him Home," but I sometimes feel like it was written just to become a popular tearjerker that could be performed at funerals and veterans' memorials. One change that I might make to the musical would be to rewrite the lyrics so that they more specifically reflect Valjean's situation and make the audience understand what he's going through.
Though maybe the song's effectiveness comes from the fact that the lyrics are universal, that it could be anyone praying for any young man to survive in a time of war. That's one thing I've noticed about all these notoriously un-Hugo-esque songs in the musical that people keep saying they would change. They seem to be written more to emphasize universal relevance than the characters' specific situations. "Bring Him Home": a universal wartime prayer. "On My Own": a universal unrequited love lament, rather than a reflection of Eponine's specific, poverty-influenced situation. "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables": an expression of grief that could come from any war- or insurrection-veteran, even though it has little to do with Hugo's Marius.
I guess when you're adapting a work on the scale of "Les Mis," that's a decision you have to make: create immediate resonance with the audience by emphasizing the universal, or create richer characterizations by emphasizing the specific situations. Either way, I suppose something is both gained and lost.
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riverdawn
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I personally think that Empty Chairs is one of the most powerful and most beautiful moments of the musical. I also think it is an beautiful song in its own right, and I completely disagree that the music and the lyrics don't go well together.
I also, by the way, quite like Turning. I know it's one of the most disliked and maligned parts of Les Mis, but I like it. I think it shows well the reaction to the events. I also think that it illustrates quite well differences in both gender and class. First because ultimately it is mostly men who die on the barricade (the women are sent away, although a few stay), whereas it is women who are left to comment on what happened.
Second, becausein the London production, the women are dressed as working class women. It is implied (as Orestes said) that they are not the girlfriends and wives of the students, but rather women of Paris. And I think this song in some ways shows the differences between the kind of world that the students (most of them middle class or upper-middle class, with some exceptions) inhabit, one in which the ideology gives meanings to the barricade and the death on it - and the world of the working class Parisians who for the most part don't really "get it" (I mean, isn't this why the barricade failed? Because they couldn't get the people of Paris to rise with them?).
So I actually think that it adds a layer of complexity to the musical, which is one of the things I like about it.
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High-baritonne
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I agree, and that is why I think Bring Him Home, On My Own, and Empty Chairs at Empty Tables does not belong in the musical. All three songs are great on their own, but I feel that they does not belong within the context of the show, with the exception of On My Own, which I think should have been sung by Fantine as it originally was in the 1980 studio recording.
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Vanessa20
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About "Turning" | riverdawn wrote: | | I also, by the way, quite like Turning. |
| Quote: | | First because ultimately it is mostly men who die on the barricade (the women are sent away, although a few stay), whereas it is women who are left to comment on what happened. |
Isn't that just what Herbert Kretzmer said in that interview he gave somewhere or other? That he didn't intend the song as an ode to cynicism, but just to show that, while men are the ones who die for their ideals, "it's the women who weep and wait" (I think those were his words).
| Quote: | | Second, because in the London production, the women are dressed as working class women. It is implied (as Orestes said) that they are not the girlfriends and wives of the students, but rather women of Paris. |
This just reminds me of how interesting it is to explore the creation of a musical, or any collaborative art work. Kretzmer's quote seems to imply (to me, at least) that he imagined "Turning" sung by the wives and girlfriends, but I suppose Adrienne Neofitou didn't necessarily agree - she may have chosen to present them as random working-class Paris women for the reasons you said.
I suppose everyone who works on creating a production has his or her own ideas and interpretations to offer, and it's a matter of how they come together. (Remembers what I've read about the creation of "La Boheme" and Puccini's arguments with the librettists about the characterization of Mimi. )
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PureDiamondLight
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I think Empty Chairs is a fantastic blend of music and lyrics. It's a beautiful, haunting song that echoes the aftremath of the barricade and - as (I think it was Orestes Fasting) said, it brings across Marius' survivors' guilt perfectly.
Also I think that it makes a difference who is singing it - I always got bored during BHH until I heard Jonathan Williams, and it was so bloody beautiful when he sang it that I cried, tried to cheer afterwards and ended up choking instead.
Finally, I sort of agree about On My Own - it's a great song but doesn't really fit with Eponine's character from the book. But, I guess they kind of altered her for the musical.
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High-baritonne
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The thing is, a song should be good as a part of the musical, if it just happens to be performed brilliantly doesn't mean that the song itself is any good within the context of the show.
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Quique
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^ I don't think anyone on here is simplistic enough to believe that anyway.
I like all three songs because they help develop all three characters, they work wonderfully in the context of the show, and are also great stand-alone songs. I disagree that ECAET was written to be a hit.
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Ulkis
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| Quote: | | I don't agree with you about "Empty Chairs," but I've sometimes had similar feelings about "Bring Him Home." Not just because Hugo's Valjean hated Marius, but because the lyrics don't even mention the reason why Valjean wants Marius to be saved: for Cosette. And of course, the line "He's like the son I might have known..." comes out of nowhere. |
That's the one line I would pay them to rewrite. It sounds like he's passive-aggressively bitching at God for not giving him a son. Everytime I hear it I wanna say, 'well Valjean, if you had some sex maybe God could help you out.'
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PureDiamondLight
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| Quique wrote: | ^ I don't think anyone on here is simplistic enough to believe that anyway.
I like all three songs because they help develop all three characters, they work wonderfully in the context of the show, and are also great stand-alone songs. I disagree that ECAET was written to be a hit. |
Precisely. And if we took every song that has a "big show tune" style out of the musical, there would be no point in it being a musical at all. If you don't want character-building solos with big tunes, go and see a play!
(As a composer I feel strongly about the right to write powerful tunes and solos without them being dismissed as "written to be a hit" and / or irrelevant to the musical. )
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Roseinmisery
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I was thinking about Gavroche a lot today for some reason. I the characters in Les Mis so much that I sort of alternate between which ones I spend my time thinking about (yesterday it was Javert). Anyhoo, I still can't understand why Gavroche isn't Thenardier's son in the musical. They could have him as a baby in MoTH. You could easily change his lines in look down to...
That's my dad Th�nardier
All of my family's on the make
Once ran a hash-house down the way
Dad�s a swine and no mistake
He's got a gang
The bleeding layabout
Even my sister does her share
That's Eponine, she knows her way about
Only a kid, but hard to scare.
They might need to add a few lines to explain why Gavroche is a street urchin and independent of his family etc, but it works for me.
And at the end of the robbery, changing Eponine from "Auntie dear" (never could understand that) to "Sister dear" would make so much more sense. Admittedly, it might confuse the audience a little if they haven't read the book, although I'm sure it could say something in the programme or something. Half the audience don't even make the connection between young Cosette and grown up Cosette anyway.
And, I would LOVE Gavroche to have Ten Little Bullets or even better La faute a Voltaire (with English lyrics A.K.A The fault of Voltaire, although I do adore it in French) as his swan song instead of Little People. I'd like Little People to be resurrected for Act I.
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Orestes Fasting
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I think it's mostly to keep from confusing the audience. It's not really important to the plot that Gavroche be Th�nardier's son.
I do really, really wish there were some way to resurrect James Fenton's lyrics to La Faute � Voltaire. Ten Little Bullets is easy to bring back--just use it for Gavroche's death scene. But the song called "You"... I don't know if there's a good place to put it. Obviously not in the first act, which is long enough as it is. The Barbican production had Little People right before Drink With Me for comic relief, but the Fenton version really can't be used for laughs. Here are the lyrics, for anyone who doesn't have the "History in the Making" book:
You thought you would notice we had nothing to eat
You thought we wouldn't mind we had to sleep on the streets
You thought you wouldn't bother if we drank from a ditch
You thought we wouldn't wonder what had made you so rich
You made up all the rules
You must have thought us fools...
You kicked us in the gutter and you laughed in our face
You dragged us through the courtroom and you taught us our place
You preached at us on Sunday looking solemn and sleek
You cheated us on Monday and the rest of the week
We saw the coaches passing on the way to the ball
I wonder if you noticed we had nothing at all
We smelt you coming out again with brandy for breath
I wonder if you noticed we were starving to death
Be careful as you go
You don't know what we know
You drove us to despair
You thought we didn't care
And here's Ten Little Bullets, for anyone who missed its brief and glorious resurrection on Broadway:
Ten little bullets in my hand
ten little snipers neat and clean--
one for the king of this great land
two for the aristocracy
three for the bishops and the clergymen
four for the prefects of police--
give me a chance, I'll take the lot of them--
ten little chances to be free
Close your eyes, I'll say when, count to ten.
(The Broadway version had some minor edits: "Ten little bullets in my hand / ten little chances to be free / one for the king of this great land / two for the aristocracy / three for the bishops and the clergymen / four for the prefects of police / now's your chance / I'll say when / trust Gavroche / count to ten.")
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Quique
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| riverdawn wrote: | I personally think that Empty Chairs is one of the most powerful and most beautiful moments of the musical. I also think it is an beautiful song in its own right, and I completely disagree that the music and the lyrics don't go well together.
I also, by the way, quite like Turning. I know it's one of the most disliked and maligned parts of Les Mis, but I like it. I think it shows well the reaction to the events. I also think that it illustrates quite well differences in both gender and class. First because ultimately it is mostly men who die on the barricade (the women are sent away, although a few stay), whereas it is women who are left to comment on what happened.
Second, becausein the London production, the women are dressed as working class women. It is implied (as Orestes said) that they are not the girlfriends and wives of the students, but rather women of Paris. And I think this song in some ways shows the differences between the kind of world that the students (most of them middle class or upper-middle class, with some exceptions) inhabit, one in which the ideology gives meanings to the barricade and the death on it - and the world of the working class Parisians who for the most part don't really "get it" (I mean, isn't this why the barricade failed? Because they couldn't get the people of Paris to rise with them?).
So I actually think that it adds a layer of complexity to the musical, which is one of the things I like about it. |
Not sure how I missed this, but I couldn't agree more. I think it all depends on individual perspective. To interpret "Turning" as general mockery/criticism of the purpose of insurrection thus painting the students in an unfavorable light--naive, dumb, silly schoolboys who died in vain is certainly understandable given the way some people react to it but I feel it isn't what was actually intended.
As I've said before and will say again, I've never gotten even the slightest sense of that after multiple viewings. And I trust myself enough to know it isn't a product of over analyzing or simplemindedness. And, yes, I do think the point about it being added so that the female ensemble could have something to do is valid, but it doesn't necessarily logically follow that it's meaningless.
What you described, Riverdawn, about the women representing the "people that did not stir," gels with what I've always gotten from that song. You can view it as the musical making negative commentary on the supposed uselessness of insurrection to the audience, or for what it is--a group of women too afraid and too complacent and part of the real problem. Any negativity I've felt was always toward these women, or rather, that mentality that cripples society, creating the dog eats dog culture Thenardier spoke of earlier in the show. I think it all flows quite well and it's consistent with what the self-serving sector of society has been saying all along.
As for concerns there will be a sudden mass hysteria of "the barricade boys died in vain," they're unfounded. I don't think anyone truly believes their efforts were for nothing. Anyone who says that is most likely referring to the immediate results having produced what obviously looks like a tragedy. But intuitively, I'm willing to bet they don't really think it all ends there.
And should they happen to be simpleminded enough to think it does, the rousing chorus and challenge posed to the audience in the finale will demonstrate they'd do it all over again if they could. But they can't, and so they invite us to take their place. Anyone that still goes away weeping for the useless battle of naive schoolboys after all that is likely a moron who won't get it no matter what.
Ahh!!! Orestes is gonna kiiiiill meeeeeeee. *hides*
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Quique
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*Emerges from hiding*
Also wanted to add that I loved the way "Turning" was originally staged, where it ends with two of the women on opposite sides of the stage, noticing that the other is alone, and holding their arms out, as they meet center stage, put one arm around the other's shoulder, bow their heads, and walk slowly upstage and fade as Marius fades into place.
For reasons unknown, they changed it in for 1997 10th anniversary of the Broadway production. The changes were later incorporated in London and on tour. Now it just features the women walking along with the revolve and exiting. They also added what I've interpreted as an older, feeble woman on the DYHTPS cart who they haul around. That little detail in the original version at least made the women vulnerable and the embracing of the two at the end always gave off a sense of community and hope. I really miss it.
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