wtwt5237
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The character JavertIn the novel, Hugo of course portrayed Javert as someone unswerving in his determination to enforce the will of the God. But at least Hugo didn't make Javert the character a positive one. I mean he was not trying to praise Javert's deeds. Javert is a good cop but also a cruel one.
But now look at the musicals. The stars sequence from it is really a little rediculous,isn't it? For someone who knows nothing about Les Mis the book or music drama but has listened to The Stars, he would think Javert is upright and a positive character as much as Cosette and Jean Valjean. There are some differences between them.
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High-baritonne
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I don't think there is an answer to who is good, who is bad, it's different from each persons points of view, from my point of view, Javert feels that he have to catch val Jean because it is God's will, and he is a catholic, and belives that enough sins will send him right to Lucifer! Here you have my view, my brother even pity Javert!
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The Pirate King
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To be fair, the book doesn't mention Javert's religious convictions much at all. That's just something that has ingrained itself into the minds of the public from the musical. Hugo's Javert seems to swear by the Law, not by God.
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eponine5
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I think it's good that Javert is portrayed sympathetically, I don't really think of him as the 'villain'. It gives the audience something to think about, that all Javert is doing is what he believes in. As Valjean says, "you've done your duty, nothing more".
And it's true, in the book Hugo never really referred to Javert believing in the 'will of God'....
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Eponine93
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I think the whole mystery of Javert is that he's a grey character. In Les Mis, none of the characters are pure good or pure evil, except for Valjean and Thenardier. Sure, Enjolras was fighting for the good of the people, but he was also a terrorist leading all of his friends to their deaths. Marius is a good character, but he also put his grandfather through hell. Marius's grandfather (sorry, I forgot his name) had good intents for Marius, but went wrong.
Javert is the same. He's not good nor is he evil. As for the song "Stars"... that song is what makes the musical so good. Even though the musical is from Valjean's point of view, Boubil and Schonesburg weren't afraid to show Javert's mindset. "Stars" doesn't prove that Javert was right, nor does it prove that Javert was good. It does prove that Javert thought he was right and that he thought he was doing good, and that is definitely in the novel.
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Orestes Fasting
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Re: The character Javert | wtwt5237 wrote: | In the novel, Hugo of course portrayed Javert as someone unswerving in his determination to enforce the will of the God. But at least Hugo didn't make Javert the character a positive one. I mean he was not trying to praise Javert's deeds. Javert is a good cop but also a cruel one.
But now look at the musicals. The stars sequence from it is really a little rediculous,isn't it? For someone who knows nothing about Les Mis the book or music drama but has listened to The Stars, he would think Javert is upright and a positive character as much as Cosette and Jean Valjean. There are some differences between them. |
No "of course" about it. Hugo's Javert was practically atheistic, and only respected religion as an extension of authority. FFS, don't cite the book unless you've actually read it--and if you have, show me one passage where Javert is described as religious.
Javert was not cruel, or evil, or a villain. He was an upright man, by the standards of human law; what Hugo set out to show is that the standards of human law as they existed in the 19th century were not in accordance with God's law, or an ideal society, or even common sense.
(By the way, I'd be interested to know where you're from and which versions of Les Mis you're familiar with--because the views you've expressed in your posts are pretty far from either the book or the musical.)
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Pannic
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I seem to recall from an abridged audiobook near the point where he commits suicide, something along the lines that he had just recognized an authority higher than law, "that of God." So yeah, not particularly religious. >_>
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LesMisForever
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Further to what OF said, Hugo spent long passages talking about the "crimes & punishments" of the time. He talked about the very harsh penalties given to minors, etc etc.
It is clear what Hugo was trying to say, and in a way this debate, and the argument are still present to our days.
I would be really interested to see how we react if someone killed one of our loved ones. It is all great, and grand to praise Valjean's forgivness, and condemn the harshness of law, but it is entirely different when the matter touches you personally. Btw, i am talking theoretically.
Eponine said that Enjolras was a terrorist...interesting. Does that mean all revolutions are act of terrorism? Isn't that a call for submission, and encouragment of dictatorship?
Does everyone leading people to death is a terrorist ?
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Eponine93
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Actually, the idea of Enjolras being a terrorist isn't mine. Aaron Lazar posted on his blog about how the news should call terrorists idiots instead, and someone wrote back saying that wasn't his character considered a terrorist to the French army? I don't actually believe that Enjolras was a terrorist but this is based on perspective. When I was talking about Javert, I was trying to make a point that the reason "Stars" makes him out as the hero because "Stars" is in his perspective.
If the barricade scenes were written from the perspective of the French Army, however, Enjolras would be considered a terrorist.
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Orestes Fasting
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Well, the late 18th/early 19th century French definition of a terrorist was simply someone associated with the Terror during the revolution. (Synonyms include Jacobin, montagnard, regicide, Robespierrist, etc.) I believe that's when the term came into existence, and by that definition, Enjolras--who was explicitly compared to Saint-Just in the book--is as much a terrorist as anyone can be without actually being alive in 1793.
By the modern English definition--someone who tries to overthrow or coerce a government by spreading fear, often by attacking civilians--then no, he wasn't. The key component in terrorism isn't armed force or violence, it's fear.
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LesMisForever
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Thank you for clarification Eponine. From your original post it looked as if this was your opinion, and btw, even if you thought so, there is nothing wrong with that. You are entitled to your opinion.
I would love to explore this point and what OF said, and i actually started writing a response, but i found myself getting heavily into politics. So, i just deleted that.
Back to Javert tough. I actually disagree with many here. I think the majority of the casual viewers of the show will come out casting Javert as the bad guy.
The musical tried very well to give Javert a depth, and more dimensions, but it is nothing like the book. The book is what make Javert who he is.
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Eponine93
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It's ok. I wanted to clarify it for everyone that I like Enjolras... a lot...
I'm not sure what the original poster why trying to ask. I was rambling about perspective because that's how I interpreted the question or statement, but all the same, I'm not really sure.
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Orestes Fasting
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Okay, here I go playing devil's advocate.
The musical deliberately sets up the three-way struggle between Valjean, Javert, and Th�nardier as a struggle between the New Testament, the Old Testament, and nihilism. Which works in the context of the musical, I suppose, but in the book I see it more as a struggle between divine law, human law, and lawlessness. Javert, as the pure manifestation of human law, isn't good or evil on his own; he errs where the law errs, is evil where the law causes harm, and is good in situations where the law is just. Since one of Hugo's points was that human law is greatly flawed, and Javert represents human law, one could argue that in this sense Javert is 'evil' or at least equally flawed. In any other character that sort of 'evil' would be a question of misplaced allegiance rather than a personality trait, but Javert practically personifies the law.
Which isn't to say that he's a curly-mustached villain shouting "Curses, foiled again!" every time Valjean slips through his fingers. He's convinced that what he's doing is right and holds himself to the same moral standards as everyone else. But in real life, most atrocities are committed by people convinced that what they are doing is right--does that make it okay?
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LesMisForever
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Excellent! OF!
I am curious about your take regarding the nihilism within the musical. Care to explore?
But, i fully agree with your assesment of Javert, including the conclusion (which i spent most of that deleted post arguing lol). I tried to say what you said about the law when i mentioned Hugo's passages about the laws of the time, and its failings. He provides some shocking statstics of the time.
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