Yip1982
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The nature of the endingI chanced to read a thread on the sad-natured songs in musical theatre, and chanced to see some posters who said that they could cry during the Act Two finale of Les Mis. I know there are some sad moments like Empty Chairs at Empty Tables or even Bring Him Home, but I've thought that even if the finale is about Valjean's death, it appears to be more hopeful than some may give it credit for.
I would like to say this because when Valjean sees Marius married to Cosette he is grateful that God has answered his prayers to save Marius. At the same time, he bravely bids farewell to his earthly life when the spirit of Fantine appears to him. Fantine leads him to his heavenly abode, and gives him the peace to know that he has been forgiven. The reprise of Do You Hear The People Sing ends the musical in a most satisfying way, and helps the main characters feel that their suffering is over.
So I cannot entirely consider the finale to be an entirely sad and heart-wrenching scene. I know it has its sad moments but it still has its hopeful moments too.
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Quique
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That's exactly how I see it. A lot of people think the novel's ending is a bummer too, which I disagree with. Some people prefer the OFC finale than the current one.
I like the current one a lot, but the OFC ending is also quite nice. The current one can be a real tear-jerker depending on how it's performed, but it's not a bummer for me. Like you said, it's more poignant, uplifting.
I've seen the number rushed, and it loses a lot. I HATE it when a Fantine or Eponine has this incredibly gleeful smile during the final chorus. So annoying!!! It takes away all seriousness from the scene. Joan Almedilla did this every time I saw her. She'd have this HUGE smile on her face and look at Valjean, who'd sometimes look back and smirk. It didn't fit the mood and sorta ruined the message for me. It was like Diana's incessant smirking throughout OMO.
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lesmisloony
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I'm actually generally annoyed by Eponine's presence in the finale in general. I mean, I know I don't really hide my distaste for musical!Eponine, but why would *she* feel the need to show up at Jean's death, story-wise? I do think the harmony between her and Fantine is incredible, and I know she's a big deal in the musical, but... Valjean only met her once, and she was dressed as a boy...
| Quote: | FANTINE PRO-V
(a ghost)
Hi Valjean.
JEAN VALJEAN
Hello, herpes lady! 
FANTINE PRO-V
It was syphillis.
EPONINE
(also a ghost)
Hi Valjean.
JEAN VALJEAN
Wait, who are you?
EPONINE
Eponine.
JEAN VALJEAN
...
EPONINE
Right, we never met. How awkward that God chose me to guide
you to the next world.
FANTINE PRO-V
We're here to take you off to Heavenland.
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(from LM abridged)
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Catherine
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Bahahaha, heavenland. =]]]
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Kragey
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| Quique wrote: | | A lot of people think the novel's ending is a bummer too, which I disagree with. |
In my personal experience, people don't see it as a downer so much as they see it as anticlimatic. But I'm a literature major, and we read stuff as emo-tastic as Herbert and Milton (UGH), so I can't speak for the general population.
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herkind
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| lesmisloony wrote: | I'm actually generally annoyed by Eponine's presence in the finale in general. I mean, I know I don't really hide my distaste for musical!Eponine, but why would *she* feel the need to show up at Jean's death, story-wise? I do think the harmony between her and Fantine is incredible, and I know she's a big deal in the musical, but... Valjean only met her once, and she was dressed as a boy...
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I think it's more about the audience's familiarity with Eponine than any relation she has to Valjean. The audience is set up to have an emotional attachment to her so seeing her return in the finale adds more poignancy to the moment especially when she gestures to Marius during "to love another person is to see the face of God..." I, personally, would rather see the Bishop return to lead Valjean to heaven with Fantine and have Eponine enter with the students and everyone who died at the barricade. That way, the finale makes sense and those who want to see her get to see her.
I always cry at the finale not because it's sad but because it's so powerful and moving. I was literally shaking the first time I saw the show.
The novel's ending doesn't seem anticlimatic to me because of the falling action leading up to it. However, the musical basically gets rid of all that and jumps right from the wedding to the end so a quiet ending would appear anticlimatic on the stage. Especially when it does nothing to offset the gloominess of Empty Chairs and Turning.
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Set_Buildin_Dad
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| herkind wrote: |
I, personally, would rather see the Bishop return to lead Valjean to heaven with Fantine and have Eponine enter with the students and everyone who died at the barricade. That way, the finale makes sense and those who want to see her get to see her.
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I like this ending a lot! It ties the show together better. It would also be good to have him greeted by those he saved along his life journey. Fantine fits this role, but so does the man who was crushed by the cart and the falsely accused man he saved from prison.
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Yip1982
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I think that the appearance of Eponine fulfils Marius's hopes. During the wedding sequence when Thenadier bullies Marius by showing him his ring, Marius tells the Thenadiers that he remembers Eponine, and that was "more than they deserved". He goes on to say that she is in heaven, happier than on earth. I think that her appearance is meant to respond to Marius's sentiments.
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Quique
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^ Unfortunately, they cut that line.
I agree that it would've made more sense to have the Bishop enter and take Valjean rather than Eponine. Probably more touching, too.
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lesmisloony
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| Quote: | | I think that the appearance of Eponine fulfils Marius's hopes. ... I think that her appearance is meant to respond to Marius's sentiments. |
And... Marius can't *see* her there. So, if it's just to let us, the audience, know that Marius was right (pretending the line still existed anyway), the exact effect could have been achieved by having her back there with Enj, Grantaire, and the lot.
| Quote: | | it would've made more sense to have the Bishop enter and take Valjean rather than Eponine. Probably more touching, too. |
More Book-accurate, too.
| Quote: | "Would you like a priest?"
"I have had one," replied Jean Valjean.
And with his finger he seemed to indicate a point above his head where one would have said that he saw some one.
It is probable, in fact, that the Bishop was present at this death agony.
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The Very Angry Woman
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Quique can probably back me up on this, but Frances Ruffelle told The Barricade that she thought the only reason they put Eponine in the finale (at least early enough to accompany Fantine) was to make the part bigger.
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Quique
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I do recall reading that...somewhere. Not sure if it was in The Barricade or elsewhere.
Btw, I just dug-up my issues and I have issues 8-23. I know I started with 8, but find it very hard to believe I didn't continue my subscription after 23 (which was the last one for the year and marked with an ex on the shipping label). Maybe the others are lost. How many issues were there in total?
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The Very Angry Woman
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I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure the last one was sometime in the Summer or Fall of 2000.
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Somewhere
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| The Very Angry Woman wrote: | | Quique can probably back me up on this, but Frances Ruffelle told The Barricade that she thought the only reason they put Eponine in the finale (at least early enough to accompany Fantine) was to make the part bigger. |
As if it weren't big enough already.  I too get distracted by Eponine in the Finale, and can't help but cringe at all the squee-ing Eppy-boppers. If there is one thing they should have changed long ago, it was definitely to replace Eponine with the Bishop.
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Quique
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Really? The last issue I have is dated 1998. The rest are either lost or I didn't continue my subscription, which I doubt. I have boxes and boxes of Les Mis crap. Hopefully they're in there somewhere.
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mastachen
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| Somewhere wrote: | | The Very Angry Woman wrote: | | Quique can probably back me up on this, but Frances Ruffelle told The Barricade that she thought the only reason they put Eponine in the finale (at least early enough to accompany Fantine) was to make the part bigger. |
As if it weren't big enough already. I too get distracted by Eponine in the Finale, and can't help but cringe at all the squee-ing Eppy-boppers. If there is one thing they should have changed long ago, it was definitely to replace Eponine with the Bishop. |
I've never seen Eppy-boppers squee during the finale.
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The Very Angry Woman
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| mastachen wrote: | | Somewhere wrote: | | The Very Angry Woman wrote: | | Quique can probably back me up on this, but Frances Ruffelle told The Barricade that she thought the only reason they put Eponine in the finale (at least early enough to accompany Fantine) was to make the part bigger. |
As if it weren't big enough already. I too get distracted by Eponine in the Finale, and can't help but cringe at all the squee-ing Eppy-boppers. If there is one thing they should have changed long ago, it was definitely to replace Eponine with the Bishop. |
I've never seen Eppy-boppers squee during the finale. |
Same here. What are you talking about?
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Quique
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| Somewhere wrote: | | As if it weren't big enough already. I too get distracted by Eponine in the Finale, and can't help but cringe at all the squee-ing Eppy-boppers. |
Was this an S.E. production, by any chance?
I'd give 'em the ol' death glare.
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Kragey
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| Quote: | | it would've made more sense to have the Bishop enter and take Valjean rather than Eponine. Probably more touching, too. |
Yeah, that would've been nice. It kind of confused me the first time I saw Les Mis and Eponine was standing there.
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The Very Angry Woman
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| Kragey wrote: | | Quote: | | it would've made more sense to have the Bishop enter and take Valjean rather than Eponine. Probably more touching, too. |
Yeah, that would've been nice. It kind of confused me the first time I saw Les Mis and Eponine was standing there. |
The production in Karlstad, Sweden had the Bishop in the finale, although he didn't take Eponine's place.
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Somewhere
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| Quique wrote: | | Somewhere wrote: | | As if it weren't big enough already. I too get distracted by Eponine in the Finale, and can't help but cringe at all the squee-ing Eppy-boppers. |
Was this an S.E. production, by any chance?
I'd give 'em the ol' death glare. |
Yes it was an SE production.
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Kragey
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| The Very Angry Woman wrote: |
The production in Karlstad, Sweden had the Bishop in the finale, although he didn't take Eponine's place. |
Well, see, that makes a bit more sense.
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lesmisloony
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I remember, back when lesmis.com had an marvellous photo database, that all the pictures from Sweden were different from what you usually see. And I *do* remember pictures from the death scene with Valjean and the bishop... and, if I'm correct, candles floating all around...?
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Quique
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I remember that pic too. That production looked beautiful.
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EponineMNFF
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I think if the musical weren't as Eponine oriented and more like the book, it would make a lot of sense to have the Bishop instead. With the way the musical is, though, I think having Eponine makes it more powerful for those who aren't familiar with the book.
I feel like that was something unpopular to say, but I do agree with you about the Bishop. I just don't think it would sell with the way the musical is.
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Kragey
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But even if you've never read the book or learned about it, I think most people are curious as to why Valjean is holding Eponine's hand en route to Heaven (or whatever) when he only met her for about a minute. It makes sense if she's just there with the others, or there but not with Valjean, because of Marius.
EDIT: 'Scuse me, "it WOULD make sense."
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Fantine
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I think that we as fans and (well sort of) insiders of the musical think too hard.
Ordinary people who are just there to watch a simply amazing show and have no further interest in the complete (book) background story will not even notice that Eponine and Valjean only saw each other once and that Ep was dressed as a boy back then. Those people would hardly remember the bishop since he's in the first 10 minutes of the 3 hour long musical and doesn't appear further in the musical. Furthermore, we don't even get to hear that the old man died. Furthermore I agree with EponineMNFF. Musical Eponine is just too popular to not have her in the finale doing the thing that she does.
We think too much, we do.
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The Very Angry Woman
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| Kragey wrote: | | But even if you've never read the book or learned about it, I think most people are curious as to why Valjean is holding Eponine's hand |
I doubt it. You're giving the average theatregoer way too much credit.
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Quique
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I'm convinced that at least half the audience at any given performance has no idea what the hell is going on. But the rousing finale just wraps things up so nicely, they can't help but cheer.
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Kragey
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| The Very Angry Woman wrote: |
I doubt it. You're giving the average theatregoer way too much credit. |
Yeah, I suppose. =/
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LesMisForever
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| Quique wrote: | | I'm convinced that at least half the audience at any given performance has no idea what the hell is going on. But the rousing finale just wraps things up so nicely, they can't help but cheer. |
hahaha, i think you are not far from truth.
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lesmisloony
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One of my favourite parts of seeing LM is watching in and listening as a good percentage of the audience members start desperately flipping through their playbills during intermission.
"Okay, okay, hold on, kids, let me see... all right. 1815, Two-lawn. Gene Val-Gene, released on parole after 19 years on the chain gang..."
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lckysvn777
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[quote="lesmisloony"]I'm actually generally annoyed by Eponine's presence in the finale in general. I mean, I know I don't really hide my distaste for musical!Eponine, but why would *she* feel the need to show up at Jean's death, story-wise? I do think the harmony between her and Fantine is incredible, and I know she's a big deal in the musical, but... Valjean only met her once, and she was dressed as a boy...
[quote]
This is my take on it. I'm guessing that Eponine shows up because her and Cosette have a connection. I mean they were *raised* together as "sisters". I don't think it really has anything to do with her meeting JVJ the one time that she did but more for Marius and Cosette. Plus I think that half the people(well me) forget about the Bishop. Anyway that's just my take on it.
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Monsieur D'Arque
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(to the tune of Finale/DYHTPS)
EPONINE:
Do you kids remember me?
Eppie! I've been here all along!
We were not onstage together,
But you heard my belty song!
Little girls all sympathize,
Everyone else thinks I'm a bum!
But they'll all hum "On My Own"
Till tomorrow comes!
VALJEAN:
What the ----?
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curlyhairedsoprano91
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| Monsieur D'Arque wrote: | (to the tune of Finale/DYHTPS)
EPONINE:
Do you kids remember me?
Eppie! I've been here all along!
We were not onstage together,
But you heard my belty song!
Little girls all sympathize,
Everyone else thinks I'm a bum!
But they'll all hum "On My Own"
Till tomorrow comes!
VALJEAN:
What the ----? |
Have I ever mentioned that you're amazing?
Love,
Cosette
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Monsieur D'Arque
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VALJEAN:
Is heaven like this?
EPONINE:
Oh yes... it's all very much like this.
VALJEAN:
...Is it too late for me to sin or something?
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lesmisloony
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Colle
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I suspose one can view the ending as sad if one looks at it from Cosette's point of view, losing the man she considers her father. I see the ending as hopeful too.
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