Vanessa20
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Thenardier- villain or victim?I just thought I'd start a new discussion, to keep my mind off stressful things, and because everyone here always has such intelligent insightful things to say about the Brick.
What do you guys think of Thenardier? Is he just naturally a scumbag, or is he another product of his environment, like pre-Bishop Valjean?
I know that some Brick-addicts just see him as evil, and that makes sense, since we're never really given a specific reason why he's a greedy bastard, and he always is one no matter what his circumstances. But other people, just as devoted to the Brick, have argued that his purpose is to show just how depraved an oppressive society can make a person- that he's an example of just how bad Valjean could have become if not for the Bishop.
I'm not sure which interpretation I agree with. How do all of you see him? I just thought this might be an interesting topic. I don't think I've ever seen it on a forum before.
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Orestes Fasting
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I see Th�nardier as someone with a lot of potential to become evil if given sufficient opportunity. If circumstances had been more favorable to him, he probably would've continued indefinitely as a dodgy innkeeper--unscrupulous and avaricious, but not a threat to society. Throw him into the crucible of Parisian crime and all that unrealized potential for scumbaggery gets exploited to its fullest extent.
I think he's inherently amoral and self-serving, but that's not what makes him evil. It's the way those traits get developed by a corrupt society.
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Andiana
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I think basically that during his whole life, Th�nardier has found that the best and easiest way to survive is to cheat, steal, lie, etc. His upbringing probably wasn't the greatest and I'm sure he was a street urchin. Life hasn't been to kind to Th�nardier and so he looks at the world different than most "doing-what-is-decent" folk do.
Listen to "Dog Eats Dog", it explains his character perfectly - Both "And God in his heaven, he don't interfere. 'Cause he's dead! As the stiff at me feet" and "I raised my eyes to see the heavens, and only the moon shines down" suggests that Th�nardier has basically lost faith due to his poor and pitiful way of life.
Th�nardier isn't EVIL in my opinion, but more misunderstood. Is he good? No. But like the rest of the characters in Les Mis, he's trying to survive. In some ways, we all have a bit of Th�nardier is all of us, we just choose not to give in to those temptations of greed and those methods of gaining our own wealth.
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Brunnhilde
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Yay! A Th�nardier thread!  Poor Nietzsche-fan innkeeper is so underrated.
I think he is a natural born rat. Not a big villain. And unchangeable. But so well-written he's believeable. And sometimes he says big truths about the society, but his hate makes him see in one dimension. If he were rich, he'd remain the same rascal.
What I like in him is the irony what Hugo uses. His big scene with Marius always makes me giggle. Yes, he's at the same time dangerous, funny, hypocrite, atheist and sometimes he has a weird kind of majesty - when he talks about the poor people to Valjean. (I mean, in the Gorbeau house.)
He could be a good Shakespeare character, for he's colorful. I'd place him somewhere amonst Shylock, Jago and Caliban.
(Note: I sympathize with Shylock. He's evil, yes, but the Christians made him evil.)
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bigR
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I don't think he's EVIL either, but closer to a selfish rascal (at the inn, for example, it is his wife who mistreats Cosette. He doesn't even pay attention to her, unless there is some benefit to obtain)
Also, one of the most interesting things about him is that he has a social conscience. He is someone who thinks that he deserves more than he has. More than what the society he lives in can offer him.
But while others in a similar situation, like Feuilly or Valjean work to improve themselves, or to improve the world they live in, Thenardier's answer is jealousy, hatred and anger. In that respect he is much more human and much more beliveable than most of the Brick characters.
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Fantine
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Dundundun!
He is a victim of society.
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Phanom
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He is the hero! 
I can't see him as a villain, more of a very funny part-evil man 
To me, both Th�nardier and Javert are not villains. In fact, in real life, there are no villains, just different points of view. Th�nardier's just seems to be a more evil one 
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bigR
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| Phanom wrote: | He is the hero!
I can't see him as a villain, more of a very funny part-evil man
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I'm afraid we were talking about book!th�nardier
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Phanom
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ahh, my bad, sorry.
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bigR
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| Phanom wrote: | | ahh, my bad, sorry. |
don't worry. it's a normal mistake since this is after all, Musicals.net
but if you stay long enough around here you will realize that when we speak about LM we often take for granted that we are talking about the book and we don't even specify.
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Cato
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Villain, of course, but he's always interesting. You can't know what he'll do next. And his scene as Baron - I giggle every time I read it. Hilarious. Although he deserves to be kicked in the... bottom.
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