jcstar
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Valjean line....At Fantine's Arrest, Valjean says "... this child without a friend?"
Is he talking about Fantine or Cossette? I mean, he would have heard about the letter in the factory, right? So he must know that Cossette exits.
Am I interpreting this wrong?
Andy.
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AndrewShatterhand
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I always thought he overheard her pleading with Javert about her child, I mean he does say he does 'believe this woman's tale".
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The Very Angry Woman
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Re: Valjean line.... | jcstar wrote: | At Fantine's Arrest, Valjean says "... this child without a friend?"
Is he talking about Fantine or Cossette? I mean, he would have heard about the letter in the factory, right? So he must know that Cossette exits. |
Cosette.
One "s."
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Orestes Fasting
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I always thought he was referring to Fantine--I know that in at least one foreign translation he addresses her directly as "you poor child."
And besides, calling Cosette a "child without a friend" makes less sense, as she does have a mother who loves her a great deal. Fantine, on the other hand, has been completely abandoned.
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Fantine
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I always thought that it was about Cosette, but the exact same question came in my head a few days ago.
Actually it does make sense that he'd call Cosette this 'child without a friend' because (well, at least I always thought) it is clear that Fantine is very ill and that she may not survive. And Fantine realises this too because later she sings: "If there's a God above, he'd let me die instead." And we already know that she's ill because she coughs all the time.
First Fantine sings about Cosette and Valjean overhears this, so he could either way be singing 'Where will she end, this child without a friend' because HE wants to help Cosette, or that Cosette needs her mother, pointing at the fact that if Fantine is in jail, there will be no way of supporting her daughter.
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Aimee
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He's talking about Fantine. He doesn't know about Cosette at that time.
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audreydarling
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| Aimee wrote: | | He's talking about Fantine. He doesn't know about Cosette at that time. |
that's quite true..unless he heard about her at the factory..but I'm fairly certain it's Fantine
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AndrewShatterhand
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| audreydarling wrote: | | Aimee wrote: | | He's talking about Fantine. He doesn't know about Cosette at that time. |
that's quite true..unless he heard about her at the factory..but I'm fairly certain it's Fantine |
As I said before, he overheard Fantine telling Javert about her young daughter. What else would be the "woman's tale" that Valjean says he believes?
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Fantine
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If I am right about the staging of Fantine's Arrest, Valjean is there, listening in the background, right?
Here are the full lyrics.
[FANTINE'S ARREST]
Javert:
Tell me quickly what's the story
Who saw what and why and where
Let him give a full description
Let him answer to Javert!
In this nest of whores and vipers
Let one speak who saw it all
Who laid hands on this good man here?
What's the substance of this brawl?
Bamatabois
Javert, would you believe it
I was crossing from the park
When this prostitute attacked me
You can see she left her mark
Javert:
She will answer for her actions
When you make a full report
You may rest assured, M'sieur,
That she will answer to the court.
Fantine:
There's a child who sorely needs me
Please M'sieur, she's but that high
Holy God, is there no mercy?
If I go to jail she'll die!
Javert:
I have heard such protestations
Every day for twenty years
Let's have no more explanations
Save your breath and save your tears
`Honest work, just reward,
That's the way to please the Lord.'
Fantine gives a last despairing cry as she is arrested by the constables. Valjean emerges from the crowd.
Valjean:
A moment of your time, Javert
I do believe this woman's tale
Javert:
But M'sieur Mayor!
Valjean:
You've done your duty, let her be
She needs a doctor, not a jail.
Javert:
But M'sieur Mayor!
Fantine:
Can this be?
Valjean:
Where will she end -
This child without a friend?
I've seen your face before
Show me some way to help you
How have you come to grief
In a place such as this?
Fantine:
M'sieur, don't mock me now, I pray
It's hard enough I've lost my pride
You let your foreman send me away
Yes, you were there, and turned aside
I never did no wrong
Valjean: Is it true, what I have done?
Fantine: My daughter's close to dying...
Valjean: To an innocent soul?
Fantine: If there's a God above
Valjean: Had I only known then...
Fantine: He'd let me die instead
Valjean:
In His name my task has just begun
I will see it done!
Javert: But M'sieur Mayor!
Valjean: I will see it done!
Javert: But M'sieur Mayor!
Valjean: I will see it done!
Here you see that Fantine did talk to Javert about Cosette and that Valjean must have overheard the conversation. Why else would he say: "I do believe this woman's tale!" in reaction to Javert's refusal. He would've said something like: "Javert, please explain to me what is going on." Or something.
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olly
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Valjean would not know that the Thenardiers were not nice people: the extent to which he knows is that Cosette is living with an "innkeeper man and his wife". Hence, why would he make the assumption that Cosette has no friends?
Going on that, I believe that Valjean is talking about Fantine when he says:
Where will she end -
This child without a friend?
I've seen your face before
Show me some way to help you
How have you come to grief
In a place such as this?
In the bold, Valejan is reflecting on Fantine's suffering and life living without her daughter. She has been maltreated by the foreman and doesn't seem to have friends at the factory. Therefore, the lines in bold are Valjean's reflective thoughts on Fantine, euphemising her as a child.
After this somewhat introspective thought on Fantine, he then starts talking to Fantine herself, hence I believe he is talking about, or to Fantine at this point.
He later goes on to think and regret what he's allowed the foreman to fire her as he realises that by doing this he's hurting an "innocent soul". We can tell this innocent soul refers to Cosette as the line prior to it, Fantine is making reference to her "daughter".
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Fantine
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| olly wrote: | Valjean would not know that the Thenardiers were not nice people: the extent to which he knows is that Cosette is living with an "innkeeper man and his wife". Hence, why would he make the assumption that Cosette has no friends?
Going on that, I believe that Valjean is talking about Fantine when he says:
Where will she end -
This child without a friend?
I've seen your face before
Show me some way to help you
How have you come to grief
In a place such as this?
In the bold, Valejan is reflecting on Fantine's suffering and life living without her daughter. She has been maltreated by the foreman and doesn't seem to have friends at the factory. Therefore, the lines in bold are Valjean's reflective thoughts on Fantine, euphemising her as a child.
After this somewhat introspective thought on Fantine, he then starts talking to Fantine herself, hence I believe he is talking about, or to Fantine at this point.
He later goes on to think and regret what he's allowed the foreman to fire her as he realises that by doing this he's hurting an "innocent soul". We can tell this innocent soul refers to Cosette as the line prior to it, Fantine is making reference to her "daughter". |
I might agree with you on the first part of your comment, but I don't agree with the last part. I assume that 'innocent soul' refers to Fantine as she claims: "I never did no wrong" not to mention the whole "You let your foreman send me away, yes you were there and turned aside" bit.
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olly
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Yes, but the fact that Fantine is also talking about her lost child that she probably will never see again, I think Valjean's also annoyed that he's done this to Cosette, another "innocent soul" - Cosette has done nothing wrong. Neither has Fantine, thus he could be referring to either one, or both.
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Fantine
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True.
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Timmy_Wishes he was Quast
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Most likely is that it was written with the intention of that double meaning. Both Cosette and Fantine being "innocent souls". Irrespective of whom the first section is about, although i am inclined to agree with Olly in the fact that i believe he is refering to fantine as the "Child without a friend"
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eponine5
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I always assumed he was talking to Fantine when he says the 'child without a friend'. In the book, his main objective is to help Fantine, and it is only later when he realises that Cosette is better off away from the Thenardiers.
I also thought that 'an innicent soul' was Fantine aswell. Before that he said 'is it true what I have done?' and then continues 'to an innocent soul'. At the point when he let the foreman fire Fantine, she was innocent.
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lalala
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I always thought he was talking about Fantine..
The child reference kind of echoes the relationship he ends up having with Fantine - he looks after her, soothes and tries to nurture her, almost as though she were a child of his.
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Fantine
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In the Dutch version, at least, he �s talking about Fantine during the: "This child without a friend" part (but then in Dutch of course, but the lyrics aiming clearly on Fantine. I could give you a direct translation if you want.)
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eponine5
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Come to think of it, how different are the Dutch lyrics from the English ones? I own the Amsterdam recording, but when I listen to it I simply imagine an exact translation from the English (hardly possible, I know). Ah well. At least it gave me the illusion that I could understand Dutch...
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Orestes Fasting
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Not by a long shot. I don't trust my Dutch enough to translate that recording, but here are the German lyrics, from Valjean's intervention:
Valjean
Ich bitt' Euch, haltet ein Javert,
ich glaube, diese Frau hat recht.
Javert: Herr B�rgermeister!
Valjean
Ich brauch Euch nicht mehr, la�t sie gehn.
Ein Arzt mu� her, es geht ihr schlecht.
Javert: Herr B�rgermeister!
Fantine: Kann das sein?
Valjean
Ihr armes Kind -
wie grausam Menschen sind.
Valjean
I ask you to stop, Javert
I believe this woman is in the right
Javert: Monsieur le mayor!
Valjean
I don't need you any more, let her go.
We need a doctor, she's not well.
Javert: Monsieur le mayor!
Fantine: Can it be?
Valjean
You poor child
How horrible men can be
Bad translation, I know, but should impart the gist of it.
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Fantine
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Your German is very good, Orestes 
Actually the Dutch lyrics to Miss Saigon (The Heat Is On In Saigon) disturbed me quite a bit because they are quite err... naughty.
As for the lyrics to Fantine's Arrest:
Valjean:
Een ogenblikje graag Javert
't Is vreemd, maar ik geloof haar w�l
Javert:
Maar monsieur Le Maire
Valjean:
U deed uw plicht, dus laat haar nu
Ze moet een dokter en geen cel
Javert:
Maar monsieur Le Maire
Fantine:
Is het waar?
Valjean:
Wat wordt van haar? Dit kind in groot gevaar?
Valjean:
A moment please Javert
It is strange, but I do believe her
Javert:
But monsieur Mayor!
Valjean:
You did your duty so let her go now
Javert:
But monsieur Mayor!
Fantine:
Is it true?
Valjean:
What will become of her? This child in great danger?
Of course the translation to English doesn't rhyme, but this is the exact translation.
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AndrewShatterhand
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The German one is definitely refering to Fantine but I think the Dutch one can still be interpreted as refering to Cosette.
Either way, I'm ready to admit defeat 
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Kate1197
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"Ihr" in German can mean "you" or "your," if I recall correctly. Which means that the German translation is open-ended as to whether it refers to Fantine or Cosette.
(I believe that with "Kind" you would use the possessive adjective "ihr" and not "ihre" since Kind is a gender-neutral word ... but correct me if I'm wrong! I've only been studying German for a few years).
-Kate
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Orestes Fasting
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 This'll teach me to take things in context--the Vienna recording of that scene cuts straight to "Who Am I?" after that section, but the Duisburg one continues on to "I've seen your face before," where Valjean does address Fantine directly--as 'du.' Which pretty much reduces the possible translations to one--"Her poor child." So in that case, Valjean is referring to Cosette. (In the German lyrics, at least. But the German lyrics are on crack, so I still maintain he's talking about Fantine in the English version.)
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sunrae
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I always thought that he was referring to Cosette. B/c he does hear Fantine say "There's a child who sorely needs me.....If I go to jail she'll die." So, he is asking Fantine about her child, he is asking her if she does get arrested "Where will she end - This child without a friend?" And then, as he speaks to her, his thought is interrupted by the familiarity of her face....."I've seen your face before..."
Just my thought.
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Moci
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| Fantine wrote: |
Actually the Dutch lyrics to Miss Saigon (The Heat Is On In Saigon) disturbed me quite a bit because they are quite err... naughty.
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Can you post them? 
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Mademoiselle Lanoire
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More than the English version?
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Fantine
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| Mademoiselle Lanoire wrote: | | More than the English version? |
I had read the English version of Miss Saigon before and I thought that they weren't that dirty but they are. So the Dutch and English version don't really differ that much at all. There is a little more "Titties" and "Buthole" going on in the Dutch version.
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Mademoiselle Lanoire
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Do you have a translation? I found a site with the lyrics, but after trying to decipher it for a couple minutes I gave up and fed it into a translator, which came out half understandable and half gibberish.
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jcstar
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| Fantine wrote: |
Actually the Dutch lyrics to Miss Saigon (The Heat Is On In Saigon) disturbed me quite a bit because they are quite err... naughty. |
Cool!
Andy.
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Fantine
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| Mademoiselle Lanoire wrote: | | Do you have a translation? I found a site with the lyrics, but after trying to decipher it for a couple minutes I gave up and fed it into a translator, which came out half understandable and half gibberish. |
I don't, but I can translate it myself.
1. Ouverture
MEISJES:
Wie wordt vanavond Miss Saigon?
REGELAAR:
Ja, ik heb ze geil voor Miss Saigon
GIGI:
Valt niks te naaien, wat een baan
REGELAAR:
Bek dicht en doe je hotpants aan
GIGI:
Straks gaat de laatste marinier
REGELAAR:
Die er nog zijn die komen hier
MEISJES:
De regelaar zorgt voor vertier
REGELAAR:
Verrassing!
Een nieuwe meid, hier, kleed haar aan
Uit de provincie ongerept
GIGI:
Ik ben ook maagd, kijk mij maar aan
MEISJES:
Voor 't eerst met een Amerikaan
REGELAAR:
Alle, alle, alle! Maken we het nog mee?
Met je kont op het toneel
Dit lijkt mijn laatste kans
MEISJES:
Ik word vanavond Miss Saigon
REGELAAR:
Men geeft Saigon een week
Ik geef Saigon een dag
MEISJES:
Ik word vanavond Miss Saigon
REGELAAR:
Per nacht dalen hun tieten en kontjes
Meer in prijs
Ik wil mijn visum nu
Dat kost een heel bedrag
Maar ik krijg het voor elkaar
Ik blijf de regelaar
De zaak loopt vol
Laat je moois maar es zien
MEISJES:
Jawel!
REGELAAR:
Weer net als toen
Mariniers, minstens tien
MEISJES:
Waarzo?
REGELAAR:
Je weet waarvoor deze wedstrijd er was
MEISJES:
Wij wel!
REGELAAR:
Een van die yanks wordt je uitreispas
Waarom ziet zij er zo uit?
Ach, mijn prinsesje als bruid
Je ogen neer, zo is het spel
En zedig kijken leer je snel
Een maagd brengt meer op dan een del
HA! Alle, alle, alle!
Zorg dat ik wat verdien
En laat je moois maar zien
Voila, allemaal op het toneel
En welkom in "Dreamland"
2. Heet als de zon is Saigon
MARINIERS:
Heet als de zon is Saigon
De meiden stinken naar zweet
Een van die gleuven
Wordt straks Miss Saigon
God, de spanning die stijgt
Ja, je ruikt hem wat heet
Heet als de zon is Saigon
Wie hier die oorlog begon
Is iets wat ik niet meer weet
REGELAAR:
He, Monsieur Chris, Monsieur John
Wie van u wint miss Saigon?
JOHN:
Nou, Chris moet nog een keer plat
Dat is een mooi souvenir
CHRIS:
Ik mag je, John
Maar je bullshit die zit me tot hier
REGELAAR, JOHN:
Heet als de zon is Saigon
JOHN:
Zo heet, dat ik nog een keer kon
Ik versier jou een meid
CHRIS:
Nee, versier me een bier!
REGELAAR:
Showtime!
MIMI:
Zie mijn bikini, het spant om mijn gat
YVONNE:
Kruipt steeds omhoog
Wat opwindend, he schat?
Kijk deze kont en dan ga je al plat
YVETTE:
Zo'n oorlogstrofeetje heb ik alleen
MIMI:
Ik wil mariniers, meer dan een
MARINIERS:
Dus er meteen overheen
Heet als de zon is Saigon
Vannacht wil ik uit mijn dak
Aan de dienst heb ik schijt
Vannacht moet ik eerst mijn kwak
Dan mijn dollars nog kwijt
REGELAAR:
De koningin van de jungle
Miss Gigi van Trahn
GIGI:
Ik ben je pin-up, ja pak me maar beet
Druk je punaise
maar dwars door mijn reet
Bronzen medailles die smelten, zo heet
Je krijgt het, met alle extra's erbij
REGELAAR:
Koop nog wat lootjes, kom op!
De winnaar neukt haar voor nop
CHRIS:
Het vlees is slecht in Saigon
Hoe vaak ben ik vroeger, stoned
Niet ontwaakt met een slet
Die gein die is er nu af
Ik heb geen lol meer in bed
REGELAAR:
En nu, onschuld uit de rijstevelden
Prinsesje Kim
KIM:
Ik ben hier nieuw en ik ben zeventien
Mijn dorpje heeft niemand hier
Vast ooit gezien
Iedereen hier is brutaler misschien
Maar ik weet: mijn hart is als het getij
Een zee van dromen in mij
CHRIS:
Verdomme, John, wie is zij
MARINIERS:
De Cong trekt strakker de strop
Duurt het een week of een dag
Of een uur, ja wanneer
Voor je het weet kan 't niet meer
Dus vannacht zet hem op
ALLEN:
Vanavond wil ik feest
Je bent maar eenmaal jong
Vergeet die rotoorlog
Vergeet de Vietcong
MARINIERS:
Mimi, Gigi, Yvette of Yvonne
Geef ons nog maar een bier
En kies nu Miss Saigon
REGELAAR:
Yvonne, Yvette, Mimi, Kim, Gigi!
Attention! Met algemene stemmen is Miss Gigi van Trahn gekozen tot Miss Saigon!
MARINIERS:
Heet als de zon is Saigon
Verloren lijkt nu het spel
Toch maar een party wat eig'lijk niet kon
Een afscheidsfeest in de hel
REGELAAR:
En wie wint dit lekkere, natte, junglepoesje?
GIGI:
Nummer 66!
He G.I., neem me mee naar Amerika!
Ik zal een goede vrouw voor je zijn!
MARINIER:
He, wat moet dat, verdomme!
Ik wil bier!
REGELAAR:
Bier voor mijn vriend hier
En jij schatje, als jij hier wilt blijven werken, je weet het, he?
----------
1. Ouverture
GIRLS:
Who will be Miss Saigon tonight?
ENGINEER:
Yes, I have them horny for Miss Saigon
GIGI:
There�s nothing to screw, what a job
ENGINEER:
Shut up and put your hot pants on
GIGI:
There goes the last marine
ENGINEER:
Those who are still there will come here
GIRLS:
The Engineer arranges pleasure
ENGINEER:
Surprise!
A new girl, here, get her dressed
From the country, untouched
GIGI:
I�m a virgin too, look at me
GIRLS:
The first time with an American
ENGINEER:
All, all, all! Will we live to see it?
With your ass on the stage
This seems my last chance
GIRLS:
Tonight I�ll become Miss Saigon
ENGINEER:
People give Saigon a week
I give Saigon a day
GIRLS:
Tonight I�ll become Miss Saigon
ENGINEER:
Each night their tits and butts drop
More in price
I want my visa now
That costs a whole fortune
But I�ll get it done
I remain the Engineer
The bar runs full
Show them your pretty stuff
GIRLS:
Oh yes!
ENIGNEER:
Just like back then
Marines, at least ten
GIRLS:
Where?
ENGINEER:
You know why this competition was held
GIRLS:
We do!
ENGINEER:
One of those yanks will be your flying-ticket
Why does she look like that?
Ah, my princess as bride
Lower your eyes, that�s the game
And looking modest is something that you learn quickly (actually zedig = modest and kijken = looking with your eyes, but this was the best translation)
A virgin is worth more than a slut
HA! All, all, all!
Make sure that I earn some money
And show them your pretty thing
Voila, everyone on the stage
And welcome in "Dreamland"
2. Heet als de zon is Saigon (Hot as the sun is Saigon)
MARINES:
Hot as the sun is Saigon
The girls smell after sweat
One of those slits
Will become Miss Saigon
God, the tension increases
Yes, you smell it so hot
Hot as the sun is Saigon
Who started this war
Is something I don�t remember anymore
ENGINEER:
Hey, Monsieur Chris, Monsieur John
Which one of you will win miss Saigon?
JOHN:
Well, Chris has to go on his back one more time
That�s a nice souvenir
CHRIS:
I like you, John
But I can�t take your bullshit anymore
ENGINEER, JOHN:
Hot as the sun is Saigon
JOHN:
So hot, that I could go one more time
I�ll get you a girl
CHRIS:
No, get me a beer!
ENGINEER:
Showtime!
MIMI:
See my bikini, tight around my hole
YVONNE:
Keeps crawling up
Exiting, right darling?
Look at this butt and you�ll get on your back
YVETTE:
I only have a war trophee like that
MIMI:
I want marines, more than one
MARINES:
Go right over them (er meteen overheen = ---- them)
Hot as the sun is Saigon
I want to party tonight
Screw the army service
Tonight I will get rid of my blob (= sperm)
And then I�ll get rid of my dollars
ENGINEER:
The queen of the jungle
Miss Gigi van Trahn
GIGI:
I am your pin-up, yes grab me now
Push your thumbtack
straight through my arse
Bronze medals that melt, so hot
you�ll get it, and all extra's that go with it
ENGINEER:
Buy some more lucky numbers, come on!
The winner will screw her for free
CHRIS:
The meat is terrible in Saigon
How often have I in the past, stoned
woken up with a slut
There�s no more fun in that
I have no fun in bed anymore
ENGINEER:
And now, innocence from the rice fields
Little princess Kim
KIM:
I am new here and I am seventeen
I believe that no one here has ever seen
My little village
Everyone here is bolder maybe
But I know, my heart is like the tide
An ocean of dreams within me
CHRIS:
Damn it, John, who is she
MARINES:
The Cong pulls the noose (?) tighter
Will it take a week or a day
Or an hour, yes when
Before you know you can�t do it no more
So go for it tonight
ALL:
I want to party tonight
You�re young only once
Forget that damned war
Forget the Vietcong
MARINES:
Mimi, Gigi, Yvette or Yvonne
Give us another beer
And now pick Miss Saigon
ENGINEER:
Yvonne, Yvette, Mimi, Kim, Gigi!
Attention! With the majority of the votes, Miss Gigi van Trahn is chosen as Miss Saigon!
MARINES:
Hot as the sun is Saigon
Lost now seems the game
Still a party that actually couldn�t be held
A farewell party in the Hell
ENGINEER:
And who wins this sweet, wet, junglepussy?
GIGI:
Number 66!
Hey G.I., take me to America!
I�ll be a good wife!
MARINE:
Hey, what are you doing, damn it!
I want beer!
ENGINEER:
Beer for my friend here
And you darling, if you want to keep working here, you know, don�t you?
------------
It's kind of hard to translate because if I translate some sentences directly it would make no sense in English at all, so I changed some bits around so they make better English sentences. But this is what it says. May contain some incorrect English at times. Be warned.
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