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Escalante	What changes would you make to the musical So, this post is inspired by some of the discussion that has been going on in Vanessa20's Song Discussion: I Dreamed a Dream vs. On My Own post which got so desperately off topic (sorry Vanessa20!) Among the things discussed were characters that could be left out of Les Mis and also characters that should have been developed more as well as some characters people felt could have been added to the musical. So, what would you change in Les Mis. What would you cut, what would you add. It can be about characters, scenery, songs, costumes, whatever! The first thing that I would like to change is this: I always thought that the Bishop should come back at the end. Fantine should be there for the first part "Monsieur, I bless your name..." but instead of having Eponine come on (which I always thought was a bit bizarre because Valjean didn't know her) I always wished that the Bishop could come back on and sing Fantine's "Take my hand where chains will never bind you" and then they could both sing the "Take my hand, I'll lead you to salvation..." I don't know if that would be lame or not. But I always thought that would be nice- since in the book when the doctor asks Valjean if he wants a priest while he is dying, he says "I already have one" meaning the Bishop.
Sweeney Hyde	I like the idea of the Bishop being there instead of Eponine. I've always wanted Javert to come on at the end, too. And after they sing "to love another person is to see the face of God" have Valjean get up, see Javert, and have the two hug while the chorus sings the first bit of their final song and while Cossette and Marius cry.
Ulla Dance Again!	Song: I'd probably cut "Turning". In my opinion, it only serves as a filler song for "Empty Chairs..." (That's my own weird preference, though). Costume: I would cut Cosette's black dress with white trim and give her a dress similar to what was used in the Ogunquit production. Scene: Runaway cart. Or at least tweak it so the staging makes sense. I'll add more when I think of them.
lesmisloony	I'd slash OMO up like the Hitcher and bring back something more like L'un vers l'autre. And I like the idea of letting Cosette have something else to do during the initial robbery than... well, nothing. ...and then I'd make it MONTPARNASSE! THE MUSICAL.
curlyhairedsoprano91	Personally? I'd find a way to give Cosette and Valjean a duet. And I'd cut OMO. And I'd put the Bishop in the Finale. And I don't like that the Thenardiers are pure comic relief as it is... I'd find some way to get rid of that.
Orestes Fasting	Since we were talking about Eponine before, I'd definitely remove a lot of the unnecessary glorification of her character. At the very least, replace her with the Bishop in the finale and get rid of the part with the barricade boys clustered worshipfully around her dead body. If we got into actual rewriting, I'd definitely try to allay some of the horrible sappiness of ALFOR. Grown-up Cosette needs more stage time. Her relationship with Valjean needs more development--I'm not saying it should be made troubled, like it was in the revival, but that we definitely need to see more of how much she means to him and how heartbroken he is at the thought of giving her up. Especially to a self-important booby like Marius. Axe the Runaway Cart music and the stupid slow-mo, but keep the scene itself. Axe Turning. I would love love love to see the full Little People resurrected, only with James Fenton's "You" lyrics instead of the silly Kretzmer ones. I just have no idea where in the show it would go: originally Little People was right after Drink With Me for comic relief purposes, but the grimmer Fenton lyrics wouldn't fit there; and Act I is long enough without another song after Look Down. Gavroche in general got kinda shortchanged by the musical, mostly because it reduced him to That Cute Kid. Can't we at least let him echo the revolutionaries' lines in One Day More like on the OFC? If there were a way to work Gillenormand in as comic relief so that the Th�nardiers could go back to being scummy instead of silly, I'd pounce on it.
Quique	^ I agree with most of that, especially the runaway cart thing. Though I'd leave Turning in.
lesmisloony	I see why they wrote Turning, but I also feel completely justified in every version of it having zero plays on my iTunes.
wtfchuck	What do you find so bad about Turning? Clearly it's not the best song, but thats no reason for it to be cut.
idTAPthat89	CHARLEYYY! look at your pm box
wtfchuck	Sure thing Lyss.
Ulla Dance Again!	Quote: If we got into actual rewriting, I'd definitely try to allay some of the horrible sappiness of ALFOR. Yes. That song definitely needs a rewrite, as parts of it are cringe-worthy. In regards to Gavroche, instead of the reprise of "Little People" when he is shot, I would bring back "Ten Little Bullets" as a full time replacement (like they did in the revival). Quote: ...and then I'd make it MONTPARNASSE! THE MUSICAL. I snickered when I read this. Perhaps it's because I conjured up an image of Montparnasse walking around and singing to his knife, like Sweeney Todd singing to his razors. Quote: Grown-up Cosette needs more stage time. Her relationship with Valjean needs more development--I'm not saying it should be made troubled, like it was in the revival, but that we definitely need to see more of how much she means to him and how heartbroken he is at the thought of giving her up. Especially to a self-important booby like Marius. I agree with this 100%. It's one of my issues with the musical. The whole relationship seems a bit rushed. Quote: What do you find so bad about Turning? Clearly it's not the best song, but thats no reason for it to be cut. This is just my opinion, mind you, but "Turning" never really shows off the strength of the female ensemble like "Lovely Ladies" does. It's as though it's been haphazardly thrown in there because they needed another song before "Empty Chairs..." It doesn't mean that I don't like the message of it but I feel it could be conveyed better.
jackrussell	I'd reinstate the original Little People. The reprise has so much more pathos when the original has been included. Also, it is a much better comedy-relief number than Master of the House. I'd also reverse the other cuts that were made subsequently. In short, my ideal version would be the same as the Complete Symphonic Recording but with Little People and the Well Scene added. Interesting idea about bringing the bishop back but what I like about the final scene is that effectively all the characters that appear are dead, i.e. Fantine, Eponine and the students, and they are welcoming Valjean over to the other side. As we have no information as to whether the bishop has died in the meantime, bringing him back would spoil that.
Sweeney Hyde	jackrussell wrote: I'd reinstate the original Little People. The reprise has so much more pathos when the original has been included. Also, it is a much better comedy-relief number than Master of the House. I'd also reverse the other cuts that were made subsequently. In short, my ideal version would be the same as the Complete Symphonic Recording but with Little People and the Well Scene added. Interesting idea about bringing the bishop back but what I like about the final scene is that effectively all the characters that appear are dead, i.e. Fantine, Eponine and the students, and they are welcoming Valjean over to the other side. As we have no information as to whether the bishop has died in the meantime, bringing him back would spoil that. True. In the show there is no indication of whether or not he died. However, in the book, he does.
lesmisloony	Sweeney Hyde wrote: jackrussell wrote: Interesting idea about bringing the bishop back but what I like about the final scene is that effectively all the characters that appear are dead, i.e. Fantine, Eponine and the students, and they are welcoming Valjean over to the other side. As we have no information as to whether the bishop has died in the meantime, bringing him back would spoil that. True. In the show there is no indication of whether or not he died. However, in the book, he does. Also... in the show he was old in 1815... one can assume that he didn't have another seventeen years in him...
Colle	I would probably do some changes to sets, costumes, and bring back most of what was cut after the CSR. I wouldn't do a major rewrite or make any major cuts. I like the show flaws and all. Plus, I am I am afraid I would make it worse or not be able to do any better. As much I know people wish Cosette had more stage time, I am not sure I would because I wouldn't quite know how to go about it. I thought about putting back in "I Saw Him Once," but while I think the song is pretty that song along with "In My Life" and "A Heart Full of Love" might get boring for the audience. I do like the character, it not an Eponine vs. Cosette thing, the challenge is making Cosette interesting in as little time as the musical allows. One thing I would not do is add Javert at the end. The way I see things, Javert never could accept Valjean, and would not be happy in the same place as Valjean, so I don't see him there.
Escalante	I am glad people liked the Bishop coming back at the end. I wish some of the regional productions would do it I agree with Colle that Javert should not come back at the end. I think seeing him in peace at last would make his story less tragic. I agree with de-glorifying Eponine's role. I think that bit with the students "fighting in her name" should definitely be cut. I believe if we de-glorify her a little, it would make it easier for actresses to take a more original interpretation of her... and I would be able to defend her in peace I definitely agree with expanding Cosette and Valjean's relationship. Valjean losing Cosette was the most tragic part of the novel for me and I would love to see that reflected more in the musical. Hey what about giving OMO to Cosette? With completely different lyrics and subject matter. Please understand this: I mean, you would use the same melody and come up with a completely different song. It would be kind of cool, because Fantine sings the same melody in Come to Me- which she sings to Cosette... It would link the two if Cosette could sing a solo with that melody. I am not sure what the solo could be about- any thoughts? Maybe about Valjean- maybe sung to Valjean? I understand about cutting "Turning" but I would feel guilty cutting it because it is just so socially relevant. But I have to admit I don't listen to it much. But the show is so spiritual in its themes that I feel it is good to have some argument of that within the show- "what's the use of praying if there's nobody who hears?" is kind of like Thenardier's "I raise my eyes to see the heavens and only the moon looks down!" It's nice to have those lines in there since the rest of the show is so religious. Okay now for my changes to TEETH: I would really love it if there would be a way for Fantine to sell her teeth. That was so... I wish I could find a more adequate way to describe it. It really showed her desperation. And Eponine would have to put on some of that Ben Nye tooth decay or some similar product- I mean, the Thenardiers' and the gang's teeth are falling out and hers are fine? No.
Ulkis	Quote: The first thing that I would like to change is this: I always thought that the Bishop should come back at the end. Fantine should be there for the first part "Monsieur, I bless your name..." but instead of having Eponine come on (which I always thought was a bit bizarre because Valjean didn't know her) I actually don't mind Eponine at the end of the show. At that point it's about the whole story and not just Valjean, but I think the Bishop is a good idea too. Hmm. I like "Turning" but can see why people would want it gone. But then I think there WOULD be too many male voices in a row, and if "Turning" was cut, I'd be brutal and just cut both "Turning" and "Empty Chairs", just going from the suicide to "Every Day". I agree with Orestes about "A Little Fall of Rain". Find someway to make it less corny. And in all honestly I'd probably add some dialogue instead of all singing. Like after Valjean gets the letter from Eponine, he could just say something like "who else did she know but me, how could this be, etc." and I would probably change Valjean's confession to Marius to dialogue too. Not TOO much, just like parts where the plot points fly by way too fast.
Ulla Dance Again!	I just thought of something else I'd change - I would bring back "I Saw Him Once" for Cosette. Quote: I understand about cutting "Turning" but I would feel guilty cutting it because it is just so socially relevant. But I have to admit I don't listen to it much. But the show is so spiritual in its themes that I feel it is good to have some argument of that within the show- "what's the use of praying if there's nobody who hears?" is kind of like Thenardier's "I raise my eyes to see the heavens and only the moon looks down!" It's nice to have those lines in there since the rest of the show is so religious. That's a good point. And as much as I dislike "Turning" as a song it does hold a lot of significance as far as social commentary goes. And also because, like you said, it brings up a sort of cynicism concerning religion.
Quique	I hope this is a nit-picky thread of sorts, cause it distresses me to think so many of you might feel the show needs THAT much of an overhaul. Being primarily a fan of the musical ( and no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that), I think it's wonderful as is. I know some of you are primarily fans of the novel and feel the musical butchered this or that character. But, all in all, it's pretty darn faithful to the book. <3
jackrussell	Quique wrote: I hope this is a nit-picky thread of sorts, cause it distresses me to think so many of you might feel the show needs THAT much of an overhaul. Being primarily a fan of the musical ( and no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that), I think it's wonderful as is. I know some of you are primarily fans of the novel and feel the musical butchered this or that character. But, all in all, it's pretty darn faithful to the book. <3 I agree, it's wonderful as it is, that's why most of what I suggested was to reinstate segments that were part of it but have been cut. Only trouble with that is that my ideal Les Mis would be about four hours long, maybe with two intervals, which is a bit much for the casual viewer. I do think that there are some parts of the show that are improveable (which is no criticism considering what an ambitious project it was), but because it's so good as it is they should resist the temptation to tinker with it. Sorry to disagree with you, Ulkis, but one thing I would never do is include spoken dialogue, that would completely go against the spirit of the piece, in my opinion
sopranodespair	I think Cosette should have a whole song to herself (she does sing a lot of "In My Life," but it's not all her's!) But I may be biased because I'm a Cosette fan and would like to see her role expanded. Cutting "Turning" De-glorifying Eponine.
lesmisloony	I really adore the musical, actually, but I'm going through a phase and I find ALFOR and, sometimes, OMO almost unwatchable. But I do find it the most accurate adaptation of the Book... ...and yeah... I worship the Book...
Ulkis	Quote: Sorry to disagree with you, Ulkis, but one thing I would never do is include spoken dialogue, that would completely go against the spirit of the piece, in my opinion That's fine. I do love the musical. It's the best English language adaptation. And it introduced me to the book. Do I think it could be much better? Yes. But I love it for what it is too.
Quique	Yay! Y'all love it. Y'all reeeeally love it! XD I was just worried everyone thought the musical was rubbish that needed serious retooling (sorry, I'm a bit protective of my Les Mis!!). But, yeah, I agree that it could be enhanced. At the same time, I get worried at such an idea as the show has had too many 'enhancements' over the years that were anything but (ie: cuts, orchestrations). I agree that the worshipping of Eponine after her death is a tad annoying, and this is coming from someone who doesn't mind the way she's written in the musical, for the most part. The Bishop at the end instead of her is an excellent idea. I love Turning. I never got the feeling it was over angsty. I love the way it was originally staged--the women going round and round as usual at the end and disappearing into the wings, except for two of the women who cross the stage toward each other, put their arms around one another, and walk slowly upstage with their heads bowed. Very poignant.
Escalante	Quique, good for you to say what you did. After all this is a thread about the musical and not the book. I just love the book so much that sometimes I lose sight of that. And I am so thrilled that so many other people on this site have also read the book so the temptation for me to get into book discussion or compare the musical to the book is more than I can handle sometimes. But I do love the musical as it is and I think that it is an extremely good adaptation of the book. Definitely, the best one out there in my opinion. When I started the thread I was sort of thinking along the lines of other shows that have had revivals that were very different from the original productions through new songs or material being added, certain things being cut, costumes being changed, etc.
lizavert	I love the musical too. But I agree with those who think that the cuts and re-orchestrations need to be undone. There doesn't seem to be much of a reason for them, except perhaps to save some money somewhere. Most of the changes I would like to see have to do with costuming. I would love to see some period appropriate costumes, especially on Cosette. Maybe finally get rid of that damn nun frock. Baisically what I would like to see is the Quebec production become standard, instead of copying Broadway.
Quique	Escalante wrote: Quique, good for you to say what you did. After all this is a thread about the musical and not the book. I just love the book so much that sometimes I lose sight of that. And I am so thrilled that so many other people on this site have also read the book so the temptation for me to get into book discussion or compare the musical to the book is more than I can handle sometimes. But I do love the musical as it is and I think that it is an extremely good adaptation of the book. Definitely, the best one out there in my opinion. When I started the thread I was sort of thinking along the lines of other shows that have had revivals that were very different from the original productions through new songs or material being added, certain things being cut, costumes being changed, etc. I love the book too! I just love the musical a little bit more. I don't mind talk about the book on this forum, btw. I think it has actually livened up what was once a monotonous, dead horse forum. I just don't agree that it's somehow "bad" that this or that little detail is not EXACTLY in line with the novel. I mean, it is an adaptation, and a pretty good one, imo.
jackrussell	lizavert wrote: I love the musical too. But I agree with those who think that the cuts and re-orchestrations need to be undone. There doesn't seem to be much of a reason for them, except perhaps to save some money somewhere. You're quite right, it is solely to save money. If they can reduce the running time below a certain limit, they avoid having to pay overtime to the crew, which is a considerable saving. You can't really blame them, I suppose, it is an incredibly expensive musical to stage. However, they managed with the long running time for so long, and the producers are not exactly out of pocket from this show, so I do feel that they should stage it in full and if they can't afford to do that, close it, not cut it.
Ulkis	Quote: Baisically what I would like to see is the Quebec production become standard, instead of copying Broadway. This I agree with, before any cuts or not cuts or changes or whatever, Les Mis should have good costumes and sets. Of course if a musical sucks good sets don't count for anything but it does make it all the more enjoyable if the musical is good and the set is as well.
Ulla Dance Again!	Quique wrote: I love Turning. I never got the feeling it was over angsty. I love the way it was originally staged--the women going round and round as usual at the end and disappearing into the wings, except for two of the women who cross the stage toward each other, put their arms around one another, and walk slowly upstage with their heads bowed. Very poignant. See, if we had done it that way - as you described with the ending of the song - in the production I saw/worked on then I wouldn't mind the song half as much. Also, the previous times I had seen the show there was a revolving stage which helped with the whole 'turning' aspect.
Orestes Fasting	lizavert wrote: Baisically what I would like to see is the Quebec production become standard, instead of copying Broadway. Hm. There are some things about the Qu�bec production I wouldn't want propagated through all subsequent productions, but I would love if the mindset behind it became more widespread. You could tell that, like the original London production back in 1985, they were trying to get across the beauty and power of the book onstage, not putting on Les-Mis-the-musical for its own sake. And unlike the London version they didn't rely on spectacle at all. What I would like to see is the original London production continuing to run unchanged, and a few replicas running here or there at any given time, and then have the show taken in new and interesting directions elsewhere. If I were at the helm of one of these I'd probably make some major changes--including cutting Turning and the sillier parts of Runaway Cart, and maybe some Eponine stuff--but I have great respect for the original and I hope it has many long, prosperous years still ahead. I just think there needs to be a lot more in the New And Interesting department; most of the regionals haven't strayed too far from the conventonal version, and it makes me itch.
Escalante	Orestes Fasting, if you live anywhere near Arlington, VA (though you probably don't since you were able to catch the Quebec production) Signature Theatre is staging their production in a blackbox and from what I have heard they are completely reimagining it. It may be all talk but hopefully they will come with something truly original. In an interview one of the actors talked about how they are trying to bring back some of the grittiness of the book. I plan to see it and I will post my impressions. (I won't say review- I hate reviews. Let people make up their own damn mind I say. )
Orestes Fasting	I already have arrangements to go see it with some of my friends--I'm going to be in the area over Christmas anyway. I've seen a couple of shows at Signature (Into the Woods, The Happy Time) and they always do a really good job, so I have full confidence that they'll be able to pull off a radically different Les Mis.
lesmisloony	Virginia?? I might be able to pull off Virginia! Is there a website? *runs off to google* I've been NEEDING to see Les Mis liek whoa. ETA: http://www.sig-online.org/lesmis.htm
Orestes Fasting	lesmisloony wrote: Virginia?? I might be able to pull off Virginia! Is there a website? *runs off to google* I've been NEEDING to see Les Mis liek whoa. ETA: http://www.sig-online.org/lesmis.htm Northern Virginia, practically in DC. Probably about a five-hour drive from NC.
EponineMNFF	I want to gooooooooooo Damn living and going to school NOWHERE near there!
Ulla Dance Again!	I'm going to see this. I don't know how I'm getting there but I'll find a way. The cast looks quite impressive, and I've never seen the show in a blackbox setting before.
lesmisloony	Hahaha, I already called my mate Emma (to whom I haven't spoken in months; we've gone to different colleges) and we're making plans. This is SO happening.
Colle	The Signature production does sound, interesting and I am looking forward to reveiew here and elsewhere. Greg Stone was my first stage Valjean, when I first saw the show (U.S tour)eleven years ago.
What you own	I argree with the thought of changeing Cosettes dress. I shudder every time I see it. I know she is supposed to go to a convent. But it also says that she was very fashionable. It does say she wore black (as she had no mother to tell her that black was very unbecomeing) but in some versions of Les mies when they have pictures even when they show her in black it not a horrible as that. and oh dear... I have just found something truley revolting... http://www.amazon.com/Cosette-Sequel-Miserables-Laura-Kalpakian/dp/0060172223 Oh my, Oh god! Shoot me shoot me shoot me! How can this be (we where children together sorry can't resist) O lord poor Victor Hugo is rolling in his grave!
Barberous	This thread got me curious about what the Quebec production looks like. I found these, which I assume are from the correct production: Does anybody have better pictures?
lesmisloony	WHO is the one near the middle with the tan coat? I... I just drooled on his costume for about ten minutes. And that Valjean looks like Nathan Fillion...
Orestes Fasting	Tan-coat is Enjolras, blue-coat is Marius. And HOLY CRAP YES they're bringing it back for another year! I saw on the MTI list of approved regional productions that there was one in Qu�bec in 2009, but I thought it was a typo because the Qu�bec production had just closed. But NO. They're doing another one! ...I am going to be so broke next summer. Edit: There should be more pictures at http://www.lesmiserables.ca
Monsieur D'Arque	Change I would make? I would write it. It would be an absurdist comedy.
What you own	I love the costumes they have in that production. Cosettes dress is so MUCH better then the ugly black one.
Ulla Dance Again!	Barberous wrote: This thread got me curious about what the Quebec production looks like. I found these, which I assume are from the correct production: I am in love with that blue coat. And Enjolras's outfit, too. There's only so many variations of that red vest. Honestly, it's refreshing to see a change. And considering I live in Maine, the drive to Quebec shouldn't be too hard. Granted it may take six - seven hours, but I'll go. I'm already planning driving three hours to see the show at Northern Stage in Vermont. Quote: Change I would make? I would write it. It would be an absurdist comedy. Considering what you've written for The Barricade Boys Are Dead, I would actually love to see your take on the story as a whole.
Artemis Entreri	My. This Qu�bec Th�nardier looks like a Goblin Dwarf Professor Flitwick Thing. But the costumes are awesome. I've seen that site and they jsut rock. Hey, Cosette's pretty! And Javert's coat has triple collars. And Valjean's Gino. I'd die to see this. Any dvd, anywhere, anyhow?
Mademoiselle Lanoire	There are probably bootlegs somewhere, and some theaters record productions for archives, but no, there's no commercially available DVD.
Orestes Fasting	Hmm. So, poking a little at the responses to this thread, I'm seeing a few broad categories of changes here: - Changes to the mise en sc�ne - sets, costumes, blocking, etc. Things like giving Cosette a less ugly dress, having Turning sung by whores instead of random townsfolk, getting rid of the slow-motion in Runaway Cart, or a new concept for how to stage Javert's suicide. Creative aspects that vary by production, that you could do if you were directing Les Mis. - Cutting or restoring material: Not for time and budget constraints, but to influence the way the plot and characters are presented. Examples: bringing back Little People or I Saw Him Once, cutting Runaway Cart or the aftermath to ALFOR. Some of these would be feasible in a regional production, some (particularly restoration) might raise eyebrows with the licensing company. - Rewriting or adding completely new material. Along the lines of "I wish Cosette had a solo," or "Let's replace OMO with an English adaptation of L'un vers l'autre," or "Give Valjean a song to express his grief over losing Cosette." Pie in the sky, but fun to think about.
Ulkis	I wanted to add that I think they should fade to black after "Lovely Ladies", next scene have Valjean in it, have someone say "good-day Monsieur le maire", then the runaway cart rolls over him and the scene goes from there, and then right after that Fantine and Bamatabois can have their fight. I just think it would be better if it seemed Fantine had prostituting herself for a little while.
Eppie-Sue	bump. There's one thought that struck me last week and I guess this is the place to post it. (and I'm sorry it's going to be such a long reply!) My problem with the barriacade scenes (scratch that: ONE of my problems with the barricade scenes) is, that we never actually see the revolutionaries kill anybody. Yes, they shoot, but we can only see their side of the barricade (until Gavroche's death, where we actually get to see three dead soldiers), it all appears to be quite dilettante and harmless. However, there are some poignant scenes about that in the book, really adding depth to the barricade battles, and in particular to Enjolras (we're already having the Enjolras book/musical character discussion in the other thread)... Two that really stand out to me are: Quote: If this were continued, the barricade was no longer tenable. The grape-shot made its way in. A murmur of consternation arose. �Let us prevent the second discharge,� said Enjolras. And, lowering his rifle, he took aim at the captain of the gun, who, at that moment, was bearing down on the breach of his gun and rectifying and definitely fixing its pointing. The captain of the piece was a handsome sergeant of artillery, very young, blond, with a very gentle face, and the intelligent air peculiar to that predestined and redoubtable weapon which, by dint of perfecting itself in horror, must end in killing war. Combeferre, who was standing beside Enjolras, scrutinized this young man. �What a pity!� said Combeferre. �What hideous things these butcheries are! Come, when there are no more kings, there will be no more war. Enjolras, you are taking aim at that sergeant, you are not looking at him. Fancy, he is a charming young man; he is intrepid; it is evident that he is thoughtful; those young artillery-men are very well educated; he has a father, a mother, a family; he is probably in love; he is not more than five and twenty at the most; he might be your brother.� �He is,� said Enjolras. �Yes,� replied Combeferre, �he is mine too. Well, let us not kill him.� �Let me alone. It must be done.� And a tear trickled slowly down Enjolras� marble cheek. At the same moment, he pressed the trigger of his rifle. The flame leaped forth. The artillery-man turned round twice, his arms extended in front of him, his head uplifted, as though for breath, then he fell with his side on the gun, and lay there motionless. They could see his back, from the centre of which there flowed directly a stream of blood. The ball had traversed his breast from side to side. He was dead. He had to be carried away and replaced by another. Several minutes were thus gained, in fact. ... and, of course, the whole Le Cabuc incident: Quote: �Will you open, yes or no?� �No, gentlemen.� �Do you say no?� �I say no, my goo�� The porter did not finish. The shot was fired; the ball entered under his chin and came out at the nape of his neck, after traversing the jugular vein. [...] �There!� said Le Cabuc, dropping the butt end of his gun to the pavement. He had hardly uttered this word, when he felt a hand laid on his shoulder with the weight of an eagle�s talon, and he heard a voice saying to him:� �On your knees.� The murderer turned round and saw before him Enjolras� cold, white face. Enjolras held a pistol in his hand. He had hastened up at the sound of the discharge. He had seized Cabuc�s collar, blouse, shirt, and suspender with his left hand. �On your knees!� he repeated. And, with an imperious motion, the frail young man of twenty years bent the thickset and sturdy porter like a reed, and brought him to his knees in the mire. [...] Le Cabuc, vanquished, no longer tried to struggle, and trembled in every limb. Enjolras released him and drew out his watch. �Collect yourself,� said he. �Think or pray. You have one minute.� �Mercy!� murmured the murderer; then he dropped his head and stammered a few inarticulate oaths. Enjolras never took his eyes off of him: he allowed a minute to pass, then he replaced his watch in his fob. That done, he grasped Le Cabuc by the hair, as the latter coiled himself into a ball at his knees and shrieked, and placed the muzzle of the pistol to his ear. Many of those intrepid men, who had so tranquilly entered upon the most terrible of adventures, turned aside their heads. An explosion was heard, the assassin fell to the pavement face downwards. Enjolras straightened himself up, and cast a convinced and severe glance around him. Then he spurned the corpse with his foot and said:� �Throw that outside.� Three men raised the body of the unhappy wretch, which was still agitated by the last mechanical convulsions of the life that had fled, and flung it over the little barricade into the Rue Mondetour. Enjolras was thoughtful. It is impossible to say what grandiose shadows slowly spread over his redoubtable serenity. All at once he raised his voice. A silence fell upon them. �Citizens,� said Enjolras, �what that man did is frightful, what I have done is horrible. He killed, therefore I killed him. I had to do it, because insurrection must have its discipline. Assassination is even more of a crime here than elsewhere; we are under the eyes of the Revolution, we are the priests of the Republic, we are the victims of duty, and must not be possible to slander our combat. I have, therefore, tried that man, and condemned him to death. As for myself, constrained as I am to do what I have done, and yet abhorring it, I have judged myself also, and you shall soon see to what I have condemned myself.� Those who listened to him shuddered. �We will share thy fate,� cried Combeferre. �So be it,� replied Enjolras. �One word more. In executing this man, I have obeyed necessity; but necessity is a monster of the old world, necessity�s name is Fatality. Now, the law of progress is, that monsters shall disappear before the angels, and that Fatality shall vanish before Fraternity. It is a bad moment to pronounce the word love. No matter, I do pronounce it. And I glorify it. Love, the future is thine. Death, I make use of thee, but I hate thee. Citizens, in the future there will be neither darkness nor thunderbolts; neither ferocious ignorance, nor bloody retaliation. As there will be no more Satan, there will be no more Michael. In the future no one will kill any one else, the earth will beam with radiance, the human race will love. The day will come, citizens, when all will be concord, harmony, light, joy and life; it will come, and it is in order that it may come that we are about to die.� Enjolras ceased. His virgin lips closed; and he remained for some time standing on the spot where he had shed blood, in marble immobility. His staring eye caused those about him to speak in low tones. Jean Prouvaire and Combeferre pressed each other�s hands silently, and, leaning against each other in an angle of the barricade, they watched with an admiration in which there was some compassion, that grave young man, executioner and priest, composed of light, like crystal, and also of rock. and I have no idea how, but if one of these scenes (esp. Cabuc) or a similar one could be translated to the musical stage, that would be perfection. Yeah... just day-dreaming on my part...
Orestes Fasting	One of the mise en scene changes I'd make if I were directing a production would be to stage the barricade as a cross-section of a street instead of looking at it straight on from the revolutionaries' point of view. That way you could (if you had a big enough ensemble) show the army storming the barricade, show soldiers being shot, show the bloody melee at the end instead of barricade boys dying from phantom bullets. Not as good as adding those scenes from the book, but the upside is that it could be done without substantial rewriting. I actually have very specific ideas for how the final battle would work: the army mounts its assault after "until the earth is free," and during the final battle music they try to storm the barricade and are pushed back. Bitter struggle, barricade boys on one side and soldiers on the other, etc. Finally, on the last discordant chord, we see the flag fall. Freeze. Then, as the aftermath music/oboe solo starts, the soldiers rush into the barricade in slow motion and under dim red lighting, and all the defenders are killed (roughly corresponding to the book chapter 'The Heroes'). Throughout all this, two spotlights: one on Valjean dragging Marius into the sewers, the other on Enjolras fending off three or four soldiers as he retreats into the wine-shop. During the big crescendo, where ordinarily we would see the barricade turn around to reveal his body, he emerges onto the second-floor balcony of the wine-shop, wakes up Grantaire who's been passed out there since Drink With Me, and they're executed Orestes-Fasting-and-Pylades-Drunk style. Actually, it might work better to have Valjean dragging Marius into the sewers after that, so the audience's eyes aren't being pulled in three directions at once.
Colle	Pretty good ideas for stageing from both sides of the barricade, Orestes Fasting. I would love to see that done. Of course, you would have to have a large ensemble for it to work.
Vice	Orestes Fasting wrote: ...or a new concept for how to stage Javert's suicide... I actually have a staging that I've come up with that I love... That's FAR less showy than the traditional staging. Instead of jumping and hanging in mid air while the bridge goes away, the bridge is stationary and Javert jumps off the upstage side of the bridge about halfway through the final note. (Well... more so intentionally falls off.) Orestes Fasting wrote: ... the other on Enjolras fending off three or four soldiers as he retreats into the wine-shop. During the big crescendo, where ordinarily we would see the barricade turn around to reveal his body, he emerges onto the second-floor balcony of the wine-shop, wakes up Grantaire who's been passed out there since Drink With Me, and they're executed Orestes-Fasting-and-Pylades-Drunk style. If I saw that in a production, I'd die from fangirling.
thegirlfromack	Eppie-Sue wrote: My problem with the barriacade scenes (scratch that: ONE of my problems with the barricade scenes) is, that we never actually see the revolutionaries kill anybody. Yes, they shoot, but we can only see their side of the barricade (until Gavroche's death, where we actually get to see three dead soldiers), it all appears to be quite dilettante and harmless. I think that if we saw what happened beyond the barricade, the effect would be a distraction from what was going on with the revolutionaries. I think that seeing people die from the other side of the barricade would look kind of like a silly arcade game with exaggerated dying that would take away from the strong emotions exerted by the brotherly group of revolutionaries. I think that if I saw them go about in conversation while random people were dying in the background it would be lacking in the required focus and emotion that builds up to the death of Gavaroche and other soldiers.
Eppie-Sue	Ah, but I didn't mean that we should actually see what was going on beyond the barricade, it was just an example of how we didn't see the revolutionaries kill anyone. I'm not thinking of a cross-section barricade to show the battle from both sides, I simply want the "He might be your brother."/"It must be done." or the Cabuc scene (or something of that extent), just to have Enjolras shoot somebody, cold marble and all. Or Prouvaire's death. *sigh*
lesmisloony	This is why we need to conspire and put on the crazy fangirl edition of Les Mis. Orestes, that's just brilliant and perfect! Vice: the tour I saw of Beauty and the Beast had Gaston fall (and I assume that's how it's always done?) and it was really anticlimatic and lame... I know the falling into the giant flushing-toilet-lighting thing is overdramatic, but it works...
Orestes Fasting	lesmisloony wrote: Vice: the tour I saw of Beauty and the Beast had Gaston fall (and I assume that's how it's always done?) and it was really anticlimatic and lame... I know the falling into the giant flushing-toilet-lighting thing is overdramatic, but it works... It can be done though, especially with clever use of projection. Gloeckner von Notre-Dame had dramatic falls from high places (including, coincidentally enough, a bridge over the Seine) that didn't suck; there are probably videos of "Esmeralda" and the finale on YouTube if you wanna see. If I were directing, Javert would jump off a quay by the Seine (the stone parapet + staircase down to the water is very distinctive, and again, projection is your friend)... and On My Own would take place on the same quay for multitudinous reasons. First of all so that lights being misty in the river would make some friggin' sense, second to evoke her rambling monologue in the book... and third so that if the actress decided to play it as a mad scene, she could be on the point of pitching herself into the river near the end of the song.
duringtheafter	Did anyone see (or read about?) the original 'amateur' Australian production? When rights were released (much earlier there than anywhere else), a large theater company did it. Apparently they had Javert on the bridge very high over the stage. At the climax of the Suicide, he literally leaped up into the air, and the stage went black. (He was on a wire to suspend him, of course.) I remember reading audience response to it, and most thought it worked really well since it was so unexpected. However, I remember seeing the original Broadway production waaaay back when, and the whole time during Javert's soliloquy I was thinking, "How is he going to jump? How is he going to jump?" The effect as staged (bridge goes up, actor's arms go up) was really thrilling and unexpected. If memory serves, the first time I saw it the actor also held the last note for awhile (rather than doing that 'jumping off a really high cliff sound' that some actors seem to favor). I think it's hard after seeing it repeatedly to appreciate the fact that it does work the first time(s) you see it, and we just predict it and analyze its staginess.
flying_pigs	Ha, they should so re-add Valjean's "You know to find me!" after Who Am I, oh the amusement it gives me!
DramaPrincess	I'd cut the brightening of the spotlights on dying characters they seem so fond of at the moment in London. I'd also stop the synchronised head turn at the end of Red and Black as it jerks out of the suspension of disbelief if they suddenly pull such a stagey move. I LOVE the idea of the Bishop replacing Eponine at the end, she has seemed a random inclusion for so long seeing as she didn't really have any connection with Valjean, but had never even considered the Bishop, top marks for that idea. Turning is a song I've never been massively keen on but I probably would end up keeping it. And I'd probably reinstate some cut things I can't think of right now, possibly I Saw Him Once.
Eppie-Sue	ITA on the "Red and Black" thing. *shudders* DramaPrincess wrote: I LOVE the idea of the Bishop replacing Eponine at the end, she has seemed a random inclusion for so long seeing as she didn't really have any connection with Valjean, but had never even considered the Bishop, top marks for that idea. Buuuut then Combeferre wouldn't be in the Finale! Combeferre + Bishop = one actor. That said, I love the idea, too, but I understand why Eponine might be there - while Fantine holds her protective hand over Cosette's head (obviously), Eponine is standing behind Marius, so... yeah. And besides, they kind of created an arc when they had Valjean telling Eponine to be careful, "there's danger in the streets tonight" just before she gets shot. Grasping at straws here. As for "Turning": You see, I have this really thought-out theory on why this song would work really well if they just changed some lyrics, but I'm really, really tired (it's like 2:25 am over here) so you'll get the short explanation. And maybe I'm over-analysing. Do you remember the moment in the book in the scene where Enjolras, Combeferre and Marius try to convince some of the men to leave the barricades, wearing the uniforms, and Combeferre tells them about the boy they found and examined in pathology or something, and how there was some sort of mud in his stomach and all... and then he goes on to remind them that if they die, their families won't have anyone to care for them, to provide for them, so they'll be put into even bigger misery, the children will become malnourished and might die, the women might have to sell their bodies, etc. ?! It's just what happened to Fantine and Cosette when they were left alone - a family without a man was a serious problem in early 19th century France. Now, "Turning" is just that: An allusion to "Lovely Ladies", where women prostituted themselves, where a mother had to sell herself to provide for her child, so the melody reminds us of the ongoing problems - and it would work really, really well if the lyrics were not about the dead students (they act like their mothers, which they shouldn't...) but about the heads of the families that died etc. Does anybody get my gist?
Ulkis	Yeah, like the men were too selfish and didn't think of their families. It's a good idea. I'm merciless though. I would just cut out both Turning and Empty Chairs. And I like both songs!
Orestes Fasting	Yes but it's still a stupid song that detracts from the message of the show. The ensemble tracks aren't set in stone; in the touring company the Bishop actor played Lesgle, and in the Broadway revival it was the guy playing Claquesous. That would probably be best, since all the ensemble actors come out in their barricade-boy costumes in the finale and Patron-Minette just end up playing random nameless revolutionaries. So nobody would be missing if the guy in the Claquesous track also played the Bishop and was in the finale.
duringtheafter	Okay, I hope my tone isn't too harsh... but I have to kill the love for "I Saw Him Once." It is such a ROUGH DRAFT song (smartly revised for the Broadway production). Let's examine the lyrics, since they're pretty bad: I saw him once Then he was gone We were like dreamers at night Who meet as in a trace, then part again! >>>This sounds awfully "Phantom of the Opera." I also think it's intended for "gone" and "again" to rhyme (I haven't listened to it in about 20 years, so I don't remember). If so, it's a bizarre not-so-near rhyme. If not, then whaaaaat? Two phantoms in the shadows of the moon Can people really fall in love so soon? >>>Speaking of "Phantom..." Ugh. "Moon" and "soon"? Was it noon in June while they counted dubloons? Cosette and Marius also met mid-day (during "The Roberry"), so this whole "at night" metaphor is out of place. He walked alone He seemed alone like me >>>I would think if Marius walked alone, he would seem alone... I know the second line is supposed to be about his mental state (as opposed to being physically alone), but it's a poor choice of repetition. Besides, Marius wasn't alone. He was talking to Eponine, he went to chase her and <boom!> smacked into Cosette. Before that, he was talking to Enjolras and handing out leaflets. He doesn't seem so alone. Could he have known That moment was my destiny? >>>Makes you appreciate the "destiny" and "Calvary" rhyme in One Day More that much more. I had to run away, And it was like a dream >>>"I had to run away" -- well, not really. Her 'dad' grabbed you and pulled you away. And again with the dream. Lazy. I saw him once The dream was true >>> Again with the dream. Come on! I saw him once, And once will do! >>>This makes it sound like she just wanted a one-night stand (or a one-day glance) and that's it. The "true" and "do" rhyme is also painful. Compare to "In My Life" (Broadway version, intro): How strange, this feeling that my life's begun at last This change, can people really fall in love so fast? What's the matter with you, Cosette? Have you been too much on your own? So many things unclear So many things unknown. >>> A good weaving together of the questioning she is feeling about her life with Valjean, and her (presumed) sexual awakening. Also she knows that love at first sight seems unlikely, but it feels real to her. Remember this is the first time Cosette opens her mouth during the show, so having her only focus only on Marius does not establish the friction with Valjean that she addresses when he enters (in the OLC, she sings "I Saw Him Once" and then goes into "In my life, I have all I could want, you are loving and gentle and good.") In my life There are so many questions and answers That somehow seem wrong In my life There are times when I catch in the silence The sigh of a faraway song And it sings Of a world that I long to see Out of reach Just a whisper away Waiting for me! >>>Okay, a bit treacly, I admit. But at least it establishes that she does have a fantasy life, that she feels sequestered. Does he know I'm alive? Do I know if he's real? Does he see what I saw? Does he feel what I feel? >>>This rings much truer than the nonsense in "I Saw Him Once." It's a more poetic play on the teen sentiment of "oh my god, does he even know I exist? Does he like-like me?" In my life I'm no longer alone Now the love in my life Is so near Find me now, find me here! >>>Passive, sure, but she's literally kept under lock and key by Valjean. Her only hope to see Marius again is if he comes to find her. And notice she does not say "the love OF my life," which would be presumptuous and cheesy (almost as bad as Marius knowing Cosette's name in the OLC without her first telling him). The love "IN my life" speaks more to her feeling romantic love for the first time. [I know it could be taken that he's her "love" and has entered her life (somewhat cheesy, yes.)] Notice we're not talking about dreams and the moon and trances and all that as in "I Saw Him Once." (We save the "Do I dream?" business for "A Heart Full of Love," which is both sappily romantic and kind of makes fun of their gush of emotions at the same time.) In addition, I find the OLC Cosette to have an annoying voice. I know many disagree with all I've written, but I had to get that off my chest.
Vanessa20	I'm not too good at thinking of changes myself, but this thread reminds me of a similar one that I remember from when I lurked on the old Rue Plumet board 100 years ago. When the cuts were first made, people started writing about all kinds of changes they'd like to make. Here are some of the ones I remember best. I don't agree with any of them, but I think they're interesting, and I'd like to know what you guys think of them. I repeat, I did NOT come up with these. Various other people did years ago: *Have the same actress double as Fantine and Cosette, like in one or two of the movie versions, and replace Fantine with the Bishop in the Finale (obviously changing the lyrics to something other than "You raised my child with love"). *Don't show the Bishop giving Valjean the candlesticks, and cut Valjean's Soliloquy. Just go straight from Valjean running off with the silver to "At the End of the Day" Until Fantine's death, we won't know what happened; for all we'll know, Valjean rose to power dishonestly. But then, at the moment Fantine dies, fade to black, and then stage a flashback showing the Bishop giving Valjean (played by a stand-in) the candlesticks. Then revert back to the present after "I have bought your soul for God." *Alter Marius and Eponine's first interaction to go this way: Eponine has a black eye, Marius wants to know what happened, he suspects Thenardier did it, Eponine doesn't want Marius getting involved, so she runs, Marius chases, bumps into Cosette, and the rest of the scene continues normally. Thus the audience sees clearly that Eponine has more problems than just an unrequited crush. *Totally change the lyrics to "On My Own" to reflect the original "La Misere" and be a reflection on misery, though still have Eponine sing it. *Cut the whole wedding scene and "Beggars at the Feast." Just have the Thenardiers come to visit Marius privately, passing themselves off as the parents of one of his dead friends. The person who came up with this one didn't like the fact that in the current show, we have "a laugh riot just minutes before Valjean bites the bullet" (I think those were his words).
Eppie-Sue	hm. I don't like the Fantine and Cosette idea. They are not the same and they shouldn't be played by the same actress, besides... it would probably just confuse the audience. IMHO, doing a flashback scene wouldn't work. I like the general idea, but the rest story is told chronologically, this one continuity break wouldn't feel right. YES about Eponine's black eye or just anything that adds more depth to her character than just the whole unrequited love nonsense. Quote: The person who came up with this one didn't like the fact that in the current show, we have "a laugh riot just minutes before Valjean bites the bullet" A laugh riot that is very, very dearly needed. Les Mis is already one of the most serious musicals, and from "Little People" on, the audience has had nothing to laught about at all. "Beggars at the Feast" is necessary, Valjean's death scene is long enough to get back into a more serious mood.
lesmisloony	duringtheafter wrote: I saw him once Then he was gone We were like dreamers at night Who meet as in a trace, then part again! >>>This sounds awfully "Phantom of the Opera." I also think it's intended for "gone" and "again" to rhyme (I haven't listened to it in about 20 years, so I don't remember). If so, it's a bizarre not-so-near rhyme. If not, then whaaaaat? You do know LM was written before POTO, right? Also, I highly doubt that gone and again are meant to rhyme there. The song doesn't have a specific rhyme scheme like Master of the House. And remember what they did to Castle on a Cloud? These guys aren't really into making constant perfect rhymes. It's beside the point. duringtheafter wrote: Two phantoms in the shadows of the moon Can people really fall in love so soon? >>>Speaking of "Phantom..." Ugh. "Moon" and "soon"? Was it noon in June while they counted dubloons? Cosette and Marius also met mid-day (during "The Roberry"), so this whole "at night" metaphor is out of place. First you're mad that words don't rhyme and then you're mad they do? And I don't understand why you don't like the metaphor. I think it's lovely. The time of day they met has absolutely nothing to do with the concept of "phantoms in the shadows of the moon." They weren't actually on the moon when they met, either. And other musicals than POTO are allowed to use the word "phantom." You seem to have a personal hang-up here... duringtheafter wrote: He walked alone He seemed alone like me >>>I would think if Marius walked alone, he would seem alone... I know the second line is supposed to be about his mental state (as opposed to being physically alone), but it's a poor choice of repetition. Besides, Marius wasn't alone. He was talking to Eponine, he went to chase her and <boom!> smacked into Cosette. Before that, he was talking to Enjolras and handing out leaflets. He doesn't seem so alone. As you already pointed out, the original London production was different from that with which we're familiar today. In fact, the two students at the end of Look Down weren't Marius or Enjolras (I know for sure one is Joly, but I'd have to check who the other is). In the OFCA Marius and Cosette had already begun their garden-based eyesexxins before we meet them (I assume), so it's likely that some of that still existed in the London one. I'm just conjecturing here, by the way, as I never saw the original London production. If someone else has, please correct me. As for complaining about the lyrics... you're just getting petty. They're perfectly acceptable. duringtheafter wrote: Could he have known That moment was my destiny? >>>Makes you appreciate the "destiny" and "Calvary" rhyme in One Day More that much more. What... wait, do you think they're trying to rhyme "known"and "destiny"? Once again, there isn't a set rhyme scheme here like in Master of the House. And that's perfectly acceptable. duringtheafter wrote: I had to run away, And it was like a dream >>>"I had to run away" -- well, not really. Her 'dad' grabbed you and pulled you away. And again with the dream. Lazy. Once again, you're being petty. If I'd written something that desperate-sounding I'd be embarrassed of it later. Cosette has every right to say it was like a dream if she felt it was! In my opinion, a lot of things about Cosette are dreamy, because being pent-up in the garden that's all she has, really; her dreams and imagination. Think about it. It fits her perfectly, plus brings in a neat connection to Fantine's own romance, which was also compared to a dream, if you recall. duringtheafter wrote: I saw him once The dream was true >>> Again with the dream. Come on! I saw him once, And once will do! >>>This makes it sound like she just wanted a one-night stand (or a one-day glance) and that's it. The "true" and "do" rhyme is also painful. The dream. Is. A metaphor. For the romance. And... why don't true and do rhyme? Once again, you complain when things don't rhyme and then complain when they do. On the other hand, I do agree that the last line is ambiguous. When I was younger I pretended it meant she never wanted to see him again and I giggled at it. That one line does need to be changed. The way you were making up arguments and nitpicking, I bet you could tear apart every song in the entire show if you wanted! I do agree Cosette needs more to her character than just her love for Marius (I could say the same for Eponine) but we've had discussions in the past about how she really just needs her own song about Valjean... As for I Saw Him Once, I think it's absolutely beautiful to listen to and the lyrics are just as sweet and dreamy as I always imagine Cosette to be. But in the end, it's the melody I miss more than anything else.
What you own	Quote: *Alter Marius and Eponine's first interaction to go this way: Eponine has a black eye, Marius wants to know what happened, he suspects Thenardier did it, Eponine doesn't want Marius getting involved, so she runs, Marius chases, bumps into Cosette, and the rest of the scene continues normally. Thus the audience sees clearly that Eponine has more problems than just an unrequited crush. Hate this Idea. It will just give fan girls for more material. Also the fact Marius doesn't give a crap in the book. He really is more like dude this girl smells get her off of me. This fact is always run over in the muiscals. If it was shown more in the muiscal it would be okey. That scene has always annoyed me because it always appears that Marius is flirting with Eponine. If it was more Marius trying to get away from Eponine. Then bumping into Cosette then would be better. You know those akward moments. Where that person just keeps talking to you. And your slowly trying to move toward the door. Trying to make excuses. You know. As for giving Eppie a black eye. Sure if it will make her chacter less pretty. And it will show she has issues. Although I would also like if we saw some of the transistion of Bad Eponine to Good Eponine. You know? I don't know just show that she has some bad parts. Maybe trying to help her parents steal. Or seeing her pick pocket a few people. And I cringe every time I here the stupid we will fight in her name. Take it out!
duringtheafter	Your defense of the song is weak. Not trying to be petty, just pointing out what I feel are very cliched or trite lyrics. Yes, I know Les Mis came before POTO. I was using POTO as the example of schlocky 'romantic' writing. The word 'phantom' doesn't bother me ("Phantom faces at the window / Phantom shadows on the floor" is a lovely lyric). It's the creepy romantic context that makes it gross. Except for that first verse, my complaints about rhymes being bad means that they're obvious or lazy--not specifically that they DON'T rhyme... For example the whole noon-June-moon-soon etc. is such a cliche. (There are even songs about it being a cliche.) "True" and "do" rhyme, but they're very "easy." Just... easy. Facile. The 'destiny' rhyme goes with 'me' in the lines before--not 'known.' Sorry if that wasn't clear. (Thought it was.) The dream. Is. A. Stupid. Metaphor. In this context. This is not about Fantine ("I Dreamed a Dream"), where the dream idea works. This is about fairy tale "It was like a dream" drivel. I love Les Mis inside and out. However, I still maintain that its roots show that the changes made were for the better (the OLC as the show's roots in its English form -- no commentary on the French version(s)). I know others feel differently -- and that is great! But I felt like the anti-"I Saw Him Once" team needed some screen time. I'd been reading so much defense of bringing the song back it was getting to me. I think from a dramaturgical standpoint, the rewrite served the show and the character well.
dcrowley	What you own wrote: Quote: *Alter Marius and Eponine's first interaction to go this way: Eponine has a black eye, Marius wants to know what happened, he suspects Thenardier did it, Eponine doesn't want Marius getting involved, so she runs, Marius chases, bumps into Cosette, and the rest of the scene continues normally. Thus the audience sees clearly that Eponine has more problems than just an unrequited crush. Hate this Idea. It will just give fan girls for more material. Also the fact Marius doesn't give a crap in the book. He really is more like dude this girl smells get her off of me. This fact is always run over in the muiscals. If it was shown more in the muiscal it would be okey. That scene has always annoyed me because it always appears that Marius is flirting with Eponine. If it was more Marius trying to get away from Eponine. Then bumping into Cosette then would be better. You know those akward moments. Where that person just keeps talking to you. And your slowly trying to move toward the door. Trying to make excuses. You know. As for giving Eppie a black eye. Sure if it will make her chacter less pretty. And it will show she has issues. Although I would also like if we saw some of the transistion of Bad Eponine to Good Eponine. You know? I don't know just show that she has some bad parts. Maybe trying to help her parents steal. Or seeing her pick pocket a few people. And I cringe every time I here the stupid we will fight in her name. Take it out! I agree with What you own... that idea could make the"oh Marius does care" opinion even stronger... I have seen the Thenardiers smack Eponine around in that scene before... in a school edition I saw, Mme Thenardier gives her a rather harsh smack on the back of the head on the line "She never had a scrap of brains." If directed well, the audience should get the idea that Ep. has far more problems than unrequited love. I do think Eponine should be played by a very pretty actress who is uglied up, though... like in the book.
flying_pigs	I'll just add some of my ideas: -Yes Cosette isn't developed enough and should be. But in the original between "I Saw Him Once" and "In My Life" was a really lovely little verse: "Oh here comes Papa And I cannot escape How can I tell him the things that I feel Or could he understand?" Which I think delves into the characters insecurities, and how her life isn't as perfect as it is made out to be and I would love if they added that in before Valjean enters in the current version. Also, I think it was Combeferre and Courferyac who sang those lines in Look Down in the original.
Eppie-Sue	flying_pigs wrote: Also, I think it was Combeferre and Courferyac who sang those lines in Look Down in the original. Really?! I'm not sure if I like it... on the one hand, I'm all for more Combeferre and Courfeyrac *fangirl mode*, on the other hand - musical-wise - it feels right to have Enjolras and Marius to be the first students to be actually introduced in Paris. And the whole "With all the anger in the land/how long before the judgement day?/Before we cut the fat ones down to size?/Before the barricades arise?" just sounds like (musical!)Enjolras. But I think I could picture Courfeyrac, too. However, I'm not sure if that wouldn't just confuse the audience... especially if the actor for Enjolras is not that strong. Everyone accepts Marius as one of the main cast, but the introduction right next to Marius in "Look Down" definitely helps to establish E! as the "main student". They should just give Les Amis more parts... they cut all the lines after "And I'll breathe them all to death!" and they cut the "Now we pledge ourselves..." part, too. What makes me think - how is the order of appearance supposed to be? Because as of right now, Marius sings "Where are the leaders of our land?/Where are the swells who run the show?" and then Enjolras does the first Lamarque part. Of course Marius is then the one to add that Lamarque is ill and Enjolras talks about judgement day, but on every recording I own, Enjolras is the first one to speak, the one who does the "Leaders of our land" part! I remember sitting in Queen's Theatre and seeing this guy appear and sing "Where are the leaders..." and his voice was not that strong (aw, sorry, Jon Robyns^^) and I was all like: "That's Enjolras?! " especially because the one who then appeared and sang "Only one man..." was so much stronger. I must say I was relieved to find that they had quite obviously interchanged the parts in "Look Down" (from 1:42) and better quality here (although with u/s Marius, from 1:46)... is that new? And why would they do that...?!
flying_pigs	Well, I always thought it would be a bit weird for Enjolras to ask "where are the leaders of the land" as, being the revolutionary leader, he should probably know the answer. Also I think it adds to Marius' naivety by givin him the first lines.
Catherine	^ Yeah, but why would Marius not know where the "swells who run this show" are, but then say that Larmarque is ill? =/
flying_pigs	Well there's that problem but I'd rather he had that line rather than "til the barricades arise" as that's such as Enjolras line!
Catherine	Oh yeah definitely, Enjolras HAS to say that line. Dammit Herbert Kretzmer!
Eppie-Sue	But aren't "Where are the leaders of the land? Where are the swells who run the show?" rhetorical questions?! I mean, both of them would know where they are - where the ministers of Charles X. are and where the seat of the government was, wouldn't they?! It's about the "leaders" and "swells" not being there for the poor. I still think it's strange that they changed it. It couldn't have been because of "order of appearance" (stupid thought but the only thing I could think of), because in my Queen's brochure's list of the cast, Enjolras is ranker higher than Marius, anyway. Which should always be the case, in every respects. Oh, and before there's any confusion: Enjolras does STILL say the "barricades" line (just listen to the two Look Down recordings) in London! It goes like this: Marius: [formerly Enjolras!] Where the leaders of the land? Where are the swells who run this show? Enjolras: [formerly Marius!] Only one man - and that's Lamarque Speaks for these people here below Beggars: [...] oh ANGST! etc. p.p. Marius: Lamarque is ill and fading fast! Won't last the week out so they say Enjolras: With all the anger in the land How long before the judgement day? Before we cut the fat ones down to size? Before the barricades ariiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiise?
flying_pigs	Oh yeah, I never thought about it being a rhetorical question! I guess we'll never know!
lesmisloony	Hmmmmmm. I guess they switched it to make it more obvious that Enj knows what's going on better than Marius? But I definitely prefer the old way. It makes sense for Enj to stomp around the alleys rhetorically whining that the leaders aren't around while Marius tries to be helpful by answering his question...
CJ	Where are the leaders of the land..? The whole background to the Paris insurrection really needs to be made clearer. I used to work on the original London production (back in the 1980s!) and, when Gavroche used to shout "General Lamarque is dead!", you wouldn't believe the amount of people in audience who used to turn to each other and say "who??". It's rather a weakness in what is an otherwise pretty tight narrative. Some of the lyrics to "Look Down" try to address this, but it's still not very clear to someone who's never seen the show before.
Orestes Fasting	Yeah. On the one hand, Lamarque doesn't really have much to do with anything since his death was just a pretext to start rioting in the streets. On the other hand, that's not really made clear to the audience, so it's kind of a WTF moment. I'd love to hear any other stories you have about the original London production, by the way.
music is my life!!!	speaking of the song the beggars, i think they should've added Azelma, so the show were more true to the book
MlleTholomy�s	music is my life!!! wrote: speaking of the song the beggars, i think they should've added Azelma, so the show were more true to the book OMG, YES. And she should also hang around during the Montfermeil scenes.
music is my life!!!	exactly! that'd be soooo awesome, or if in the whole "eponine come my dear eponine let me see you..." bit that Madame does, an extra few bars could say "hi" to azelma, and "why don't you grow up like your sister? at least you're better than cosette" kind of thing...
Orestes Fasting	Are you kidding? Half the audience doesn't even make the connection that Eponine is Th�nardier's daughter, let alone that she was the little kid in the inn at Montfermeil. It'd be a nice shoutout to the book, but it would only confuse 99% of the audience even more.
music is my life!!!	what about when gavroche says "even his daughter does her share. that's eponine, she knows her way about...."?!?!? Even if the resemblance isn't visually clear, if the audience is awake, they should understand it. Most people i know didn't know that Gavroche was their son, not that Eponine wasn't.
Eppie-Sue	I was just going to say the same thing. As much as I'd love for subtle, hidden brick shoutouts, this is not the way to do it. The audience would probably get Cosette and Eponine and Azelma confused. A few weeks ago I was wondering if elaborating thet Gavroche is Eponine's brother would work, but I think even that would be too much context. Some can't even link young Cosette and old Cosette...
Orestes Fasting	music is my life!!! wrote: what about when gavroche says "even his daughter does her share. that's eponine, she knows her way about...."?!?!? Even if the resemblance isn't visually clear, if the audience is awake, they should understand it. Most people i know didn't know that Gavroche was their son, not that Eponine wasn't. Yeah, well, in an ideal world everyone would be listening to the lyrics in Look Down instead of gaping at the sets and costumes and ensemble members doing their thing in the background, and Gavroche would never mumble, and people would remember the backstory from just a single line in a busy ensemble number... but clearly this does not happen, going by the general tendency of audience members to go "Lamarque is dead? Who's he, the one with the nightstick?" Subtle hidden Brick shoutouts are fun (like the Broadway revival's barricade boy in the red waistcoat with no lines, who was totally Bahorel) but adding Azelma wouldn't be subtle, just confusing.
music is my life!!!	haha that's true about gawping at the set! but if the audience all had a copy of the programme, which contained the plot...
Orestes Fasting	music is my life!!! wrote: haha that's true about gawping at the set! but if the audience all had a copy of the programme, which contained the plot... Yeah but if the audience has to refer to the program to know what's going on, something's wrong.
music is my life!!!	what about if they'd all read it before the show started? surely it's a bit dark tto be able to read a programme in the middle of a show?
marlalp	I love the musical and I think it does a good job of capturing the spirit of the novel..however there are two things that bother me and that I would change if I could. One is that Javert should not be religious. This conflicts with his portrayal in the book and doesn't really make sense. His religion is the law. He is not supposed to be enlightened, and while he is respectful of religion, he does not really understand it. If he were such a devoted Christian, as he appears to be in the musical, then the idea of redemption, mercy and forgiveness should not be so foreign to him. The whole reason for his suicide is because he suddenly realizes that there is another law, above that of men, that he must answer to, and he cannot reconcile the two. The other thing is Valjean should not kill anyone at the barricade. This pretty much goes against everything he stands for. I'm sure they could have come up with another way for him to "help out" at the barricades.
MlleTholomy�s	Or you know. He could just sit there, and stare off into the distance for two whole days, eliciting perplexed statements from the Frenchboys.
lesmisloony	The thing about religion in LM is that though it doesn't jive with Book!Javert, it works for the musical. There's this whole thing Boublil and Sch�nberg were trying to do by giving the major characters constrasting views on religion. You can compare Bring Him Home to Stars (I read a thing where they were saying Javert's was an Old Testament God, while Valjean's was a New Testament one) and then, just for good measure, they threw Th�nardier's Dog Eat Dog into the mix. The younger characters' and women's solos are all about romance troubles, but the older ones all have interesting contrasting views. Yes, I wrote a massive research paper on Les Mis when I was in the eighth grade.
marlalp	MlleTholomy�s wrote: Or you know. He could just sit there, and stare off into the distance for two whole days, eliciting perplexed statements from the Frenchboys. Are you talking about Valjean at the barricade? In the book he went around attending to the wounded and repairing the barricade. And shooting guards' hats off. lesmisloony wrote: The thing about religion in LM is that though it doesn't jive with Book!Javert, it works for the musical. There's this whole thing Boublil and Sch�nberg were trying to do by giving the major characters constrasting views on religion. You can compare Bring Him Home to Stars (I read a thing where they were saying Javert's was an Old Testament God, while Valjean's was a New Testament one) That's an interesting take on it. While I still can't get onboard with a religious Javert, I like the contrasting old testament/new testament view idea. I think J/JVJ are supposed to be mirror opposites of each since they are based on the split personality of one guy.
MlleTholomy�s	marlalp wrote: MlleTholomy�s wrote: Or you know. He could just sit there, and stare off into the distance for two whole days, eliciting perplexed statements from the Frenchboys. Are you talking about Valjean at the barricade? In the book he went around attending to the wounded and repairing the barricade. And shooting guards' hats off. Hmm. The only part I remember is him staring at the ground for a LONG time, prompting Combeferre to make a remark about queer birds to Enjolras. I'm probably wrong, thoguh. I haven't read the brick in a couple months.
marlalp	MlleTholomy�s wrote: marlalp wrote: MlleTholomy�s wrote: Or you know. He could just sit there, and stare off into the distance for two whole days, eliciting perplexed statements from the Frenchboys. Are you talking about Valjean at the barricade? In the book he went around attending to the wounded and repairing the barricade. And shooting guards' hats off. Hmm. The only part I remember is him staring at the ground for a LONG time, prompting Combeferre to make a remark about queer birds to Enjolras. I'm probably wrong, thoguh. I haven't read the brick in a couple months. Yeah, he does that too. This is the part I'm talking about, "Prisoner", page 1253 of the Signet edition wrote: Jean Valjean had taken no other part in the combat than to expose himself. Save for him, in that supreme phase of the death struggle, nobody would have thought of the wounded. Thanks to him, present everywhere in the carnage like a providence, those who fell were taken up, carried into the lower room, and their wounds dressed. In the intervals, he repaired the barricade. And don't forget about the mattress...
Orestes Fasting	Eppie-Sue wrote: ITA on the "Red and Black" thing. *shudders* DramaPrincess wrote: I LOVE the idea of the Bishop replacing Eponine at the end, she has seemed a random inclusion for so long seeing as she didn't really have any connection with Valjean, but had never even considered the Bishop, top marks for that idea. Buuuut then Combeferre wouldn't be in the Finale! Combeferre + Bishop = one actor. That said, I love the idea, too, but I understand why Eponine might be there - while Fantine holds her protective hand over Cosette's head (obviously), Eponine is standing behind Marius, so... yeah. And besides, they kind of created an arc when they had Valjean telling Eponine to be careful, "there's danger in the streets tonight" just before she gets shot. Grasping at straws here. As for "Turning": You see, I have this really thought-out theory on why this song would work really well if they just changed some lyrics, but I'm really, really tired (it's like 2:25 am over here) so you'll get the short explanation. And maybe I'm over-analysing. Do you remember the moment in the book in the scene where Enjolras, Combeferre and Marius try to convince some of the men to leave the barricades, wearing the uniforms, and Combeferre tells them about the boy they found and examined in pathology or something, and how there was some sort of mud in his stomach and all... and then he goes on to remind them that if they die, their families won't have anyone to care for them, to provide for them, so they'll be put into even bigger misery, the children will become malnourished and might die, the women might have to sell their bodies, etc. ?! It's just what happened to Fantine and Cosette when they were left alone - a family without a man was a serious problem in early 19th century France. Now, "Turning" is just that: An allusion to "Lovely Ladies", where women prostituted themselves, where a mother had to sell herself to provide for her child, so the melody reminds us of the ongoing problems - and it would work really, really well if the lyrics were not about the dead students (they act like their mothers, which they shouldn't...) but about the heads of the families that died etc. Does anybody get my gist? Sorry for the thread necromancy here, but I was reading through old stuff and this struck me... I've always kind of wanted to either cut Turning, or have it sung by the whores. Partly to give it more bite, partly to reinforce the message that Hey They're People Too and give them something to say besides "wow, prostitution sucks." But reading this post I got another idea... Half of the women are off-duty whores in the full Lovely Ladies getup, half of them are dressed normally as in the regular version of Turning. If we really want to play up the "Combeferre's think of the women speech" angle, they could be the women who left the barricade at Dawn of Anguish. Lines are split between the two groups. Near the end, it starts becoming more and more like a dialogue, until one of the girls--possibly at the darker mood shift around "nothing changes / nothing ever will"--in desperation hitches up her skirts and joins the whores. And then as the song progresses, one by one the women fall into prostitution as well. I'm not sure it would work onstage but I like the idea.

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