Archive for Musicals.Net Musicals.Net |
| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
Seriously, do you guys have ANY idea how insanely jealous I am??? Especially if it's enough to bring Eppie-Sue out of retirement!
You'd better all post very detailed reviews, or I will ... torture you until you give them 
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| riverdawn |
Thanks for these. You do understand, of course, that we're going to need more than that. Like, way more than that. 
Also - from Jeff's Twitter: "Had the lovely Killian Donnely on for Val Jean. Aren't Camerons lucky to have such a talented emergency cover!!" 
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| Madeleine |
Tonight was so surreal. I still can't believe I just saw Killian playing Valjean. AMAZING.
It was totally worth standing at the back of the circle for 3 hours, although I do wish I could have been closer to see more detail. (I know I shouldn't complain since I was incredibly lucky to be there at all, I'm sorry!) Bring Him Home was just phenomenal. I'd rank Killian right up there with JOJ, in terms of vocal performance of that song. I was in tears, and BHH hasn't actually made me cry since I saw the show for the first time, a few years ago. Aww, and he was so sweet with Little Cosette.
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| riverdawn |
I can totally believe that! Is it weird that these reviews are making me totally excited for Killian for getting this chance and doing so well? I've never even talked to him, or seen play any role bigger than one of the students - but I'm still super-excited about this. 
(and, yeah, ok, kind of depressed that I couldn't stay - although, really, still in a high over the matinee). |
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| Eppie-Sue |
just one more post:
This. I was just incredibly happy to see him alone on stage (already got that with him as Javert a month ago, but Valjean is just... that's just a different league, again) and singing and playing his heart out, being positively EPIC, and then getting this so very well deserved applause and, all in all, giving a performance that left me completely speechless. He is amazing. |
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| beyondthebarricade |
Yes, we need longer and much, much more detailed reviews. About everything. I don't care how long it takes you but really, talk about every single detail that he did today!
Amazing. |
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| Madeleine |
Ah I'm sure more details will come soon!
My mind has just gone a bit blank really after all the excitement...I'm sure I'll remember things when I calm down/get some sleep. ETA But look what has already appeared on Youtube! |
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| beyondthebarricade |
The wonders of YouTube.
When he holds those notes at the end of each line it just seems so pure and clean. He sounds so mature too! Brilliant. He controls his voice very well too, and when he's at the "He's like the son I might have known", it's still were subtle and controlled, and he crescendos it and it becomes strikingly powerful when it reaches the "The summers die, one by one" part and it returns to very soft and caressing at "And I am old, and will be gone". He talks of Alistair as a "boy" and he gives this gentle fatherly image from his voice alone. "If I die...", that but he sings it and it's like you don't know what has hit you. And ends it off beautifully. Haha okay get some sleep, right now it's 2.40AM there? But we expect reviews.
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| aquirkofmatter |
I've never cried at BHH - until tonight. It was absolutely beautiful. The FOH guy I was talking to at the end of the show and I were discussing the Killian/Shannon similarities, and there are many. That and the fact that Killian is an incredible performer. I still just cannot get over how awesome that was. But oh, everything about his performance was great. You would never have guessed it was his first time on! The whole cast pulled together tonight, actually, it was a fantastic show; the stage did appear quite empty at times (Lovely Ladies, in particular; you could see Rebecca changing behind them) but if you weren't familiar with the show you couldn't have known. I still can't get over how incredible tonight was. (....and I'm just about over my 'disappointment' that, once again, I've missed Jonathan!  )
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| riverdawn |
Awww.... that is beautiful. Killian is, truly, unbelievable. | ||||||
| flying_pigs |
http://www.youtube.com/user/hoursofpallor
One Day More. AMAZING! |
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| HannahM |
Beautiful |
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| MajorTordoArthur |
I never thought they'd send on Killian, but this is awesome =D
(don't shoot me, but I expected they'd send HPJ on as Valjean and Jeff as Javert) |
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| riverdawn |
Huh, yeah, I totally forgot that HPJ used to play Valjean as well.
Well, maybe he didn't want to? Or they didn't want to have "replacement" actors in both of the main roles? Or maybe they thought it would be easier to have a bearded Valjean? I have no idea.
Either way, I'm very glad they didn't put HPJ on and gave Killian the chance to shine (again) and us the chance to enjoy his lovely performance.
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| MajorTordoArthur |
Well, I'd have loved to hear HPJ as Valjean again, I really like him for some reason, but Killian is indeed even better =D | ||||||
| MizH |
Killian sounds really good as Valjean. It's great that he got to perform the role. I've always wondered what they'd do if the principal and both understudies were off. All these reviews and the EPK have made me want to see it again! | ||||||
| pastaeater |
Killian is amazing isn't he - what a talented, talented guy.
I'm still hoping for more detail!! |
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| beyondthebarricade |
Okay, just to divert from the whole OMG KILLIAN VALJEAN goodness..
http://www.harlowherald.co.uk/content/hlwherald/news/story.aspx?brand=HLHOnline&category=NewsHarlow&tBrand=HertsCambsOnline&tCategory=newslatestHLH&itemid=WEED05%20Feb%202010%2016%3A11%3A01%3A200 In this article,
I'm sorry if I missed out something, but since when was Little People ever tear-jerking? |
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
Well, he does die... |
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| flying_pigs |
And sings a reprise of Little People as he's doing so. |
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| riverdawn |
Yes, I did end up seeing the show tonight, after all...
And I was glad I did, because Simon Shorten was on as Valjean. It was quite an interesting experience. Vocally, I think he might be the best Valjean I've seen (granted, I've not seen many). He seems to be really really comfortable in his high range, so that where other actors sound either straining to hit the high notes, or - if they do hit them - like they are doing a remarkable feat of vocal pyrotechnics - he seems to be able to just sing those notes easily. This resulted in possibly the most beautifully sung Bring Him Home I've heard - very clear and strong and beautiful. The only place he was slightly less successful at this (in my own opinion, of course) was during the final scene - but that's probably because he was trying to sound...well.... dying. Which he sort of did... so I guess it's all good.
As for the other aspects of his performance, it took me a while to get into his acting. He was very... intense... in the prisoner scenes. It wasn't that he was over-acting or anything like that, but just that he seemed to have a lot of seething anger. Which is a good thing, because Valjean at that point *is* supposed to be angry... but I guess it sort of took me off guard. Especially after two performances with Jonathan Williams, whose Valjean is very gentle (in a good way). At any rate, his acting definitely grew on me as the show progressed, so that ultimately I quite liked him. The one thing that was a tiny tiny bit of a distraction - perhaps because I was sitting at the front of the dress circle and had a very good view - was that I could really tell that he was a young man wearing "old man makeup". I could never quite suspend disbelief enough to really see him as aging. But again, this might just be me. Jeff was on as Grantaire, which I'll admit left me a bit perplexed. Those of you with a long(ish) memory will remember that initially I really liked his Grantaire and was unsure about Neely's. Then I got to really like Neely. This was the first time I'd seen Jeff in many many shows, and it took me a while to figure out his take on the role. At first, it just looked like he was taking it towards the drunken buffoon... but then as I kept watching, I got the feeling that he was actually doing something else - that his Grantaire was much darker, much more cynical and yes - much more drunk - than Neely's. With MartinTaire the focal point seems to be Enjolras, and everything he does is done to get Enjolras's attention in either a positive or negative way. With JeffTaire I got the feeling that it was more that he was sinking deeper and deeper into his own cynicism and despair, and that on occasion he allowed Enjolras's faith to pull him out of it. So, which one do I prefer? I'm not sure. I think I'll have to go with MartinTaire, but they are both very interesting takes on the role. Also, regardless of all this, there was some great E/R in DWM, which of course made me very happy. JeffTaire remained seated after singing his verse, making DavidJolras go to him... and then he started to drink and DavidJolras pushed the bottle away from JeffTaire's mouth and then later basically wrenched it away... and then there was some talking and then a really lovely hug. So yeah...
Overall the show had a bit of a weird feel to it (not in a bad way, just a little strange), because half of the ensemble was different than usual, Claquesous was missing etc. And I do have to say that Killian does make a less imposing Brujon than Jeff. He was also in Jeff's track on the barricade, and I have to say that the sight of him pushing Javert off the stage, while perfectly fine, was just ever so slightly less convincing than seeing Jeff do the same. 
Anyway, I'm not going to review everything else because it's largely the same as always, except to say that David went INSANE in LiD, more than I've ever seen before. He literally looked like he was shaking with enthusiasm in "they will come when we CAAALLLLLL!" It was... kind of wow. |
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| kemathenga |
Kind of ... wow just about captures it.
We managed - bordering insanity - to fly in to London just to see Les Mis twice within six weeks. This time I had two of my daughters with me, the younger one not as enthusiastic about it as Myriel but quite ready to enjoy it and familiar with the lyrics, too. We had spend eight ours sightseeing London and settled into our seats in the upper circle looking forward to a show we already knew (knowing by now where the understudy sheet is) that Simon Shorten would be on as JVJ and Jeff Nicholson as Grantaire. We were thrilled. And we stayed it. We are of one mind concerning most of the things. We liked Simon Shorten a lot. LOVED his voice which really shows an amazing ability in the higher ranges albeit it noticeably lacks power when it gets really high. Still, compared to the average musical Les Mis is, as we once again noticed, of an outstanding quality. Another voice we couldn't get enough off is HPJ as Javert. I enjoyed him every minute he spent on stage which is not always the case, I'm not so keen on the character normally. For us this was a twice-in-a-lifetime experience, so we probably missed more details than not although Myriel spotted a lot of tiny things which escaped me like Joe Evans shouting "Freedom!" at the top of his voice or two people at the Montfermeil inn arm-wrestling and one cheating. Being a Grantaire-Fan I was curious to see another actor this time and my Curiosity was well rewarded, I actually liked Nicholsons Grantaire better than Neely's I'd seen in january. I agree with riverdawn that he plays him more distant. The scene in which Grantaire stays absorbed iin his newspaper while the others are planning the revolution was adorable and -something I value above all else - absolutely in character with the book. That his interaction with Enjolras wasn't the focus also was some feature I found myself liking. We especially were blown over by Mme. Thernadier. She outshown her husband on stage iohO and the whole of MotH to me seemed to be a bit more ... well, not sober but less riot than the last time we saw it. I liked that, too. My younger daughter specially loved Gavroche and I admit he was a lovely and convincing street urchin. The way he looks around when going after the ammo and is clearly terrified but manages to go on all the same was superb. As for Enjolras there are no keys on my keyboard to do him justice. Spectacular jumping, such heart in his performance you wonder if he really has only one such organ like us "normal" people. I got the impression he was less chummy with the other students than last time and in other productions I've seen online. He seemed kind of distant, consciously in charge but for the blocking with Grantaire in DWM when he actually allows himself to rest his head on his comrades shoulder for a sec. Not in character of course, but worth seeing. To us he was impeccable in every aspect, outstanding, awesomest.
All in all it was an amazing show we are really, really glad to have come back to see and managing to meet Jeff Nicholson and Martin Ball at the stage door came as an additional special treat. Especially Martin Ball was SO nice and really seemed to enjoy my kid's enthusiasm. This folly of spending all of our christmas and some other money on these two trips to London (only possible with the help of good friends there, of course) is something my daughters and I will never regret, I'm sure. PS: I still don't like the bishop of Digne. It's not so much his acting but the way he draws the last notes out. I just don''t favour this interpretation nom. |
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| riverdawn |
I'm glad you got a chance to enjoy the show again, Kemathenga - although if at one point you get another chance to do a trip to London (I know it's not easy for you), I really highly recommend trying to get the BB seats. They cost about the same (possibly less than?) the upper circle seats - and it really is quite an amazing experience being that close to the action.
As for the Gavin's Bishop, well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I really love him, and I was particularly impressed with the way he held that long note on GOOOOOOD yesterday.
But anyway, I'm glad you got a chance to be there yesterday and enjoyed it.
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| stelllar |
Hi everyone, this is the first time I�ve posted on a forum (so I hope i've done it right!) but I thought I�d add my 2 cents about last night. I agree with the previous two reviews, Simon Shorten was a really good Jean Valjean, and did a fantastic Bring Him Home. The only thing I really thought that Simon Bowman did better was his chemistry with little Cosette, which just seemed more natural somehow. I thought Alistair Brammer had improved a lot since I first saw him as Marius. I really disliked him to start with, I thought he sang kind of nasally, but it feels like he�s toned it down a bit now, though I still don�t like how he shakes when he sings (but that might only be obvious because I�ve only ever sat close up in row BB!). David Thaxton was absolutely superb, as he has been the other times I�ve seen him. He�s so talented and has such presence on stage � fantastic.
I can�t really comment on the subtleties of the interactions between the students as I�ve only seen the show 3 times, and every time I go they seem to be playing different roles, so it�s taking me a while just to learn who is who! Hopefully I�ll be able to see it a few more times though (as many as my bank balance will allow) and will be able to put up a more detailed review in the future. |
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| riverdawn |
Welcome, stellar!
I agree with you - Alistair Brammer has improved, a lot. He did use to be quite nasal, but he's clearly worked on it and is quite good now. Also, his shaking has been reduced as well. I think he just used to be pretty nervous. As for the interactions, don't worry about. It takes a while to figure out who is who and what's going on. Also, sometimes it requires deliberately looking away from where the main action is at a specific moment.
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| Myriel |
@Riverdawn: Thanks for the tip about the BB seats. We thought about that already but we don�t know how to get them. Are they available online? This time we asked our friend in London to get us cheep tickets and we don�t think he bought them at the Queens but from an agency.
At the moment I�m planning to go a third time
Martin Ball was soooo nice when we talked to him at the stage door. He couldn�t believe I read the book.
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| BlueEyedGirl |
Hey everybody, this is my first post (hope it's okay I'm posting here), and I just wanted to say thank you for all your wonderful reviews of the London production, you are actually the reason that I'm flying from Copenhagen to London in april to see the show
As a huge Enjolras-fangirl, I'm expecially looking forward to see Thaxton (he better not be off that week!). Anyway, hope you all continue to post reviews. |
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| Lauraa |
^ Hi
Well, according to West End Understudies, in April he'll be off from the 1st to the 3rd. |
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| riverdawn |
You can't get the BB tickets online. You can get them either by going to the box office in person or by calling the box office at 0844 482 5160. If you book by phone there is a small booking fee, so the tickets will be 21.75 pounds instead of 20. Still an excellent deal by my count.
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| BlueEyedGirl |
Yeah I think I checked that page about 37 times in one week before ordering tickets, I'm just paranoid, he's going to be sick or something
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| Lauraa |
Haha I do that too, though I'd love to see Mark Dugdale as Enjolras now
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| riverdawn |
I'm going to see MarkJolras next week and I'm kind of looking forward to it.
Needless to say I love David's Enjolras, but I've only seen Mark once - the second time I saw the show - and I'm really curious to see him again now that I know the show better.
But if I were just getting one ticket to see this cast, yeah, I'd be checking WE understudies religiously to make sure it's not on David's holiday dates. Sadly, there's not much to do about someone being off without notice. Either way, BlueEyedGirl, I hope for your sake he'll be there and that you'll have a great time.
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| Myriel |
And how do you pay when you phone the box office? |
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| riverdawn |
Credit card, I'm afraid... but it's the same with websites, other agencies yo call etc. |
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| Hallie |
Its ever so slightly off topic (as in not about the cast or performance) but I saw the Les Mis bus today!! Ok, I know its not actually a Les Mis bus but it has the picture on so...yer lol. You guys are all keeping me going with your reviews, can't wait to see the show again - bring on June!!
Xx (",) xX |
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| Eponines_Hat |
Geez.....
I leave the country for four bloody days and I miss Killiam JVJ! @�^&!! He sounded amazing! Hope those of you on here who were lucky enough to see him enjoyed the show. His BHH sounds freakin awesome <3 (and, good to see yet another JVJ who can actually hit the last note of Who am I? Bowman, I hope you are taking note of this.....) |
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| Eppie-Sue |
(I can not stay away from this. heh.)
But just, really quickly, because it's for the good of the fandom: Lots of videos. Lots and lots. Isn't that amazing? And no. No. It wasn't me. I saw the performance, though (from BB) so that's the double amount of amazing.
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
I was there too! It's awesome when you see a video and it reminds you of stuff in a performance that you'd forgotten - like how much I like Jefftaire when he dies (here).
And we've finally got the Jump caught clearly on camera, even if we do lose the bottom half of it - the Legs are still there .
And Jonathan's and Martin's bloopers. I'd forgotten how obvious Martin's was! And Jonathan's looooong pause... |
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| Eponines_Hat |
This person is a genius! Thank you for the Mizzy-love! |
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| riverdawn |
Hehe. For a moment tonight it almost looked like we were going to have an unmanned barricade: the barricade came in with the whole dramatic music bit, and then the orchestra went into the next bit of music, the one during which, usually, everyone runs onto the stage, David climbs the barricade, someone hands him the flag etc. - and erm... nothing happened. The barricade just stood there.
Instead, they only started running in DURING "you at the barricade listen to this!" - and just managed to set up the table, chairs, flag etc. in time for David to get in "Damn their warnings damn their lies". (But of course without the whole part where they settle down at the barricade, and then David gets up - and Martin after him - during "you at the barricade). I was kind of  for a few moments after that. I have no idea what happened there.
There were also a few lines flubbed here and there, but nothing very memorable. There may have also been a bit of flag dropping (i.e - the flag may have found itself on the floor briefly) - but it made it back into David's hands in time to be whipped off the stage, so I don't think it counts. Overall was a good show. Helen Owen was on as Eponine and was good, although I've quite gotten used to Nancy's way of doing things. Bowman was back on and, sadly, appears not to have lost any of his Bowmanosity over the past few weeks. There was an excessive amount of stage whispers, gesturing etc. I bravely managed not to giggle when he went for the "Crazy Hands" in BHH - as I was sitting in B22, which would have made it very embrassing. Anyway, after hearing Shorten's gorgeous high notes on Monday, it was quite disappointing to have Bowman's "thinner" ones, though he did have some lovely moments in his lower range. However, his FLIIIIGHT was better than I'd heard it before - and he got applause at the end of "Who am I?" - despite not even trying for the ONNNEE. In fact, the audience overall was exceedingly enthusiastic. There were also applause after the Suicide and at various other moments.... and basically a complete standing ovation at the end. All the actors at the stage door talked about what a great audience it was and it was nice to see them appreciated in this way. |
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| belladonnadarling |
one
The song isn't about that last note. Too much attention is given to that high note as if the part is all about that note, well...it isn't. Personally I prefer a warmer voice for the part of Valjean instead of a narrower high voice. And definitely somebody with maturity...that's why SB is the better choice. |
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| riverdawn |
And you are, of course, well entitled to that opinion. | ||||||
| Eppie-Sue |
I think Simon Shorten, being second understudy, delivers one of the best "Who Am I?"s of all the ones I've heard. I don't think his voice is overly narrow. My favourite, though, funnily enough, is Killian Donnelly's. I enjoy having a Valjean who sounds mature in the way that he knows what he's doing with his voice, who doesn't start belting notes like "and I stand here in her plaaaaaaaace" only for his voice to give in at the last second of "place". It's not very pleasant. Therefore, I prefer Valjeans with a steady voice that doesn't sound sharp most of the time, very much "on edge". But maybe that's just me. I also think something that David Shannon did exceptionally well was to display the change Valjean goes through with his voice. His acting was amazing, and he knew how to act with his voice and to project.
From my point of view, it's rather sad to have three people in the cast, covering this role, who can hit all the notes perfectly and have a very clear and book-like characterisation of Valjean down, and then have a principal who doesn't and whose voice skips at parts of other notes at well (Bring Him Home), who has to change dynamics in order to carry the notes. |
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
Belladonnadarling, no-one here is going to respect your opinion if all you do is show up once in a while to criticise people here and don't contribute anything yourself. If you want people to consider your points, then try being less antagonistic, and show that you are actually intersted in being a part of this forum. If not, and all you post here for is to criticise the rest of us, please stop doing it. It's a waste of your time. | ||||||
| riverdawn |
Oh! Watching that Final Battle video just reminded of something I noticed yesterday.
Antony also did a pretty epic Jump! Not during the final battle, of course, but rather just before he goes to check the status of the ammunition. MartinTaire came to give him a hand to get off the barricade and AntonyFeuilly took the hand, but then sort of used it as leverage to make a pretty big jump off of the barricade down to the stage. If he's done it before, I haven't noticed it. It was pretty awesome!
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| Eppie-Sue |
As I am weak and can't stay away from MdN anyway (there goes my self-restraint, ugh):
He's always done this, as far as I can remember... it's best when Jeff is on as Grantaire, he almost flung him off stage two weeks ago, we talked to Antony about it at the stage door... a bit too much momentum. |
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| riverdawn |
Ah. Thanks for the info, Eppie-Sue
I guess my attention was elsewhere when I was watching it before. I did notice him going down from the barricade, of course, but I didn't notice that it was a big jump before. Anyway, it was cool to see it yesterday.
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| MizzieFan |
Well in my opinion the best BHH from current cast has Jonathan. No, I haven't seen him live, but My opinion is based on the recordings I also like Killian and Simon Shorten, but I can't seem to like SB. Don't know why, but I just can't. It seems like he is vocally much weaker than his understudies and I am judging only from the audios
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| beyondthebarricade |
Ahha, same here. Based on the audios alone (because I've only seen Simon Bowman live), Jonathan's voice sounds so mature and pure. And old too, which is incredible because he's only 20 something. When cast change comes, they need to promote his understudies. |
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
That's what I particularly love about Jonathan's JVJ - how you really feel him ageing. Especially in the Epilogue. |
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| Eppie-Sue |
Ah, there are so many BHHs out there that I love dearly. Some of Jonathan's (and, I'm sure he'd be flattered, but I think he is in his thirties ), Killian's... and some of Shannon's (cast change in October being a good example while not even being his strongest, given that it was, well, cast change) - he worked with that song like I've never seen anyone else do it. I loved his delivery so much because of the emotion and the sheer intensity. His voice filled the entire theatre, in the Soliloquy, too.
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
Oh my. I'd forgotted how good he was... How I miss him 
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| mm10 |
After reading that SB was still off on Monday night I have been wondering all week if he was back and too afraid to ask in case people accused me of gong on and on about him. Now that he is back the same critisism is starting again and anyone who dares to disagree is immediately shot down. Surely Belladonnadarling has given a reason for her opinion and I have to say I agree with her. When I first saw JOJ I was totally blown away by him and didn't ever imagine anyome could be better than him but for me SB was - and it wasn't because i thought his voice was any better than JOJ but i think it was probably the fact that he was older than JOJ and fitted the part better. It's great that understudies get the chance to go on now and again but they are understudies for a reason and when they do get the chance to go on they will understandably want to prove what they can do. I've seen a definate pattern here in that an understudy appears and suddenly all the talk is how much better he is than SB then as time goes on the critism becomes less harsh until an understudy goes on again and the whole thing starts up all over again. I know i've said it before but I really do feel that people here think Jonathan Williams should have been promoted and have never given SB a fair chance. My final comment (thank God for that I hear you all say) is that if anyone doubts how good SBs voice is or how he can convey emotion they should listen to his album. OK I'm off to hide now P.S Eppiesue - I'm so glad you're back |
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| riverdawn |
mm10 -
I'm genuinely, truly, glad for you that you enjoy Bowman's performance and like to see it. It's great for you, as at the moment you are likely to be able to see him on most performances. I'm sure that because you like him so much, it can be a bit irritating to be in a forum where he gets a lot of criticism, so I can understand your point of view in that sense. I definitely hope that you don't feel attacked here and that you will continue to participate.
Personally, as I've said on my post reviewing last night's show, and as I've said repeatedly in other posts here, there are aspects of his performance that I quite enjoy. There are also, unfortunately, aspects which I really don't enjoy. That being said, I think it's a bit unfair to say "oh, you really like Jonathan Williams and were sad he wasn't promoted, so that's why you criticize Bowman." Take my case, for example: I saw the show for the first time in my life in August. I don't know who was on as Valjean then (obviously not Bowman, as he wasn't yet in the show). And I obviously enjoyed the show a lot (or else I wouldn't have gone back) Between that time and coming back to England less than two weeks ago, I saw the show 8 or 9 times - and I'm fairly certain all of those times were starring Bowman. And during all those times, there a few aspects of his performance that I enjoyed (some of his lower range, his acting with Cosette, some parts of his characterizations) - but many aspects which I found very distracting and problematic (the over-emphatic gestures, the weak high notes, the over-pronunciation of certain words). Clearly, I still enjoy seeing the show with him starring in it, because otherwise I wouldn't keep going back. However, for me personally there are aspects his performance that are quite problematic [and, just to be clear, if you enjoy his performance and don't find those aspects problematic, that's great for you. I really have no objection to differing opinions.] At any rate - as I've not seen Jonathan Williams perform until last Thursday, my criticism of Bowman simply cannot be based on the fact that I'm disappointed that Williams wasn't promoted. In fact, until a week ago, I wouldn't have been able to pick Williams out of a line-up. Not only that, but as I wrote in my review of Thursday's show: there had been no understudy announcement, and I was sitting a bit far away and for the first half of the show I assumed that it was Bowman, and really found myself thinking "God! Bowman has really really improved since I last saw him. I really like his performance today!". It wasn't until the intermission that it became clear that it wasn't Bowman at all. Given all this, I think you'd be pretty hard-pressed to make an argument that I'm criticizing Bowman because I have some preconditioned preference towards someone else on the cast. And I think it's equally incorrect to assume that other members of the forum, even those who have seen (many) other Valjeans before, are only criticizing Bowman because they have a bias towards someone else. Again - don't get me wrong. You absolutely don't have to *agree* with these criticisms. If you like Bowman's performance, that's a perfectly welcome and legitimate opinion, and if you get a chance to review the show, I would love to read reviews where you detail those parts of Bowman's performance that you enjoyed. As far as I'm concerned, the more opinions there are, the more interesting things are. As for Belladonadarling, the reason she got the response she did was NOT because she likes Bowman or enjoys his performance. It is because all she ever does on this forum is sit around and wait until someone writes a criticism of Bowman and then criticize that person. Again, you [or anyone else] don't have to agree with my opinion, or anyone else's opinion, about Bowman or anyone else on the show. However, there's a difference between being a regular participant on the forum (as you are) who among other things expresses a difference of opinion (which I think is great) - and being someone who just lurks around, contributing nothing, until it's time to attack someone for criticizing Bowman. You see what I mean?
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
We're not going to shoot you down for liking Simon Bowman, I promise. And certainly for not asking when he would be back. Yes, the majority of people on here don't like him, and people will inevitably disagree with what you say. On the internet, disagreement often comes across as criticism, but often people do genuinely want a sensible discussion rather than a shouting match. I always like to hear well-founded opinions that disagree with my own, and to be able to discuss them. As for my comment to Belladonnadarling - I don't have a problem with their opinion at all. Like with you, if they like Simon Bowman, then that's great. And I'm glad for his sake that he does have his fans. However, it is Belladonnadarling's posting history that annoys me. Go on their profile and find their previous posts. They have only ever posted to criticise members of this board for criticising either HPJ or Bowman. The first time they posted was to criticise Eppie-Sue for her opinion on HPJ's portrayal of Javert, then they came back a while later to criticise me for commenting on Jonathan forgetting some lines and a couple of other comments, and now they're back again to criticise just criticism of Bowman. In many cases they have been rather offensive. They are welcome to their opinions, but as I have said before, if they want me to respect those opinions, they've got to do more than show up once in a blue moon to criticise me and others for our opinions. |
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| beyondthebarricade |
Whoops. I had this illusion that he was 28 and it stuck. Although he does look 30 plus in the picture for his biography.
Heh. Isn't everyone? Anyway. For the whole Bowman thing...it's coming up again. I thought it was already agreed that everyone had their own opinions. |
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| mm10 |
Thanks guys for your replies - being fairly new to the forum I hadn't read any of Belladonnadarling's previous posts so I guess I thought you were being a bit hard on her.
As for SB I don't know why I feel so defensive of him I really don't, it's not like I know him or anything but I can't help thinking how he would feel if he were to read these forums, one thing I do know for sure is that he is certainly giving it his all and I'm sure like any performer he wants to please the audience. I know that a lot of you are very knowledgeable not only about the show but performing generally - I don't know if you are performers or drama students but I know you see things that will probably be totally lost on the average theatregoer and I mean that in a good way - I have got such an insight into things since joining this forum.
I know it's just that I seem to be the only one for SB and I'm feeling a bit lonely
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| riverdawn |
Well, based on Elbow's last review of him, he might be converting her, so who knows.
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| Eppie-Sue |
mm10, thank you very much. I really, honestly appreciate your opinion, it's what a discussion board is for and I'm very happy that there are people who enjoy Simon Bowman's performance. While I can't agree and, sadly, can't see it, I would hate for it to be the case that the entire audience left the theatre with a sense of disappointment. I want people to like him, but I can't, myself, even though I've tried. I know it might seem like we were all campaigning for Jonathan's promotion and when he didn't get it, we formed ranks against the new Valjean, whoever he was supposed to be, but I remember saying - and maybe even writing on here, I can't quite remember - that I was looking forward to getting a new Valjean, a new cast member, because I thought of it as interesting and exciting. I already loved Jonathan's performance a lot at that point and would have loved for him to get the promotion, but at the same time, I was very intrigued by someone new being cast. When Bowman was cast, people seemed happy and pleased with the casting decision, so I was looking forward to it even more, as he was hailed as many people's favourite after JOJ (never understood the amount of praise he got either, unfortunately, so maybe it's just an issue I have with these kinds of Valjeans...) - very promising. And then I was just left with a sense of bewilderment and disappointment. But still, after seeing him for the first time, I think I wrote: "I believe he will grow on me" or something like that, I wasn't all against him - yes, I thought his Valjean was smug, too confident, but I don't think anyone can argue that this isn't a personality trait Bowman does, indeed, bring to the stage in this role. Still, I felt fairly open to him, wanted to like him. Why wouldn't I? Seeing the show so often, surely it would be stupid and pathetic to go with the mindset to not like the new Valjean, as it would ruin a good part of the show for me. Just an example: I was already prepared to dislike Katie Hall when I came to see the show in August. She is now my favourite Cosette. It really hasn't got anything to do with that.
I love that we can have different opinions on the forums, and please don't feel like we're criticising him as a person or shooting you down or anything remotely like that. Yes, the criticism can become a bit much at times, but I think that's the case because it's such a strong cast overall with such subtle and great and what many of us feel underappreciated performances (in the ensemble), that most of us are a bit thrown off seeing Simon Bowman's performance in the middle of it all, because if there is one thing that I never get from seeing him with others on stage is that he is working with them, sadly, and I've been wondering why. It might be his interpretation of Valjean: He just dominates the scenes. And while that sounds like a compliment, I don't think the acting choices you make should influence everyone else's performance. I don't like that I always get the impression that he is, quite frankly, embodying the "I AM THE HERO. WATCH ME GO." characteristics (if I may quote Elbow here). The other day, after he had shot the sniper, as he asked Enjolras/Thaxton to hand over Javert to him, he was leaning on his gun, one foot on one of the boxes, literally like he had just killed a grizzly bear, looking very content with himself, assured and very much like he had just killed that man to get hold of Javert. This is not even remotely what I imagine Valjean to be like after killing a man. Yes, book!Valjean wouldn't even shoot anyone, but seeing as he is forced to do so in the musical, you have to work with that. But being proud and determined afterwards? I'm not so sure. And this is just one of the many examples that make me dislike Bowman's Valjean, which I think is incredibly sad, because when I saw Jonathan Williams and David Shannon back in June as my first actual "live on stage" Valjeans, I was, finally, interested in Valjean's journey, could relate to him, understand him, feel for him. I miss that very much. I would love to understand Simon Bowman's Valjean, but I can't. He doesn't make any sense to me, and, sadly, it doesn't help that there are obvious flaws in his vocal performance - and, regrettably, I also simply don't like his voice (which is not a main criticism - I don't like Rebecca Seale's voice, either, I really can't help it). I'm very sorry for this long explanation... So, um, in other news, saw the show tonight, I quite liked Helen (saw her on Thursday already and really preferred her today. She's not Eponine to me at all, though...), um, Greg was on as Th�nardier and was wonderful, there is something to add to the "Ad-libbing" thread from Jeff, but I think Madeleine wants to do that , there was an epic argument between Markfeyrac and Davidjolras in Drink With Me.
And Killian was on as Montparnasse (FINALLY! Waited all week for that to happen!) and was bloody amazing. <3 He does love that knife. Sadly, without Nancy as Eponine, there wasn't that much interaction, but I was very happy to get him tonight! |
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| Eponines_Hat |
It's really interesting that you mentioned this. While I hadn't noticed it from Belladonnadarling specifically, I have noticed a few people signing up to the forum, having a go about someone's review/opinion the day they sign up and that's it. It seems to have happened a fair bit on the tour board. It bugs me a lot - mostly because they clearly don't use the board and so don't really get that we can critique something without necessarily criticizing it (OK, except for Bowman. We are hard on him - but I think it's born out of sheer frustration about his lack of growth and development in the role. People on herehave warmed to almost every other actor they weren�t initially that impressed with - so why not him? It can�t be all our fault!) I dunno - I just find the whole thing a bit .. well, cowardly.... It makes me think that perhaps Cammack sits at home on a Saturday night, trawling the forums, and creating these �new members� to defend his creative choices. I can�t imagine who else would be that defensive. On a lighter note, back from tonight�s show. It had a real buzz about it - I think because there was quite a bit of cover going on, there was a lot of fresh adlibing etc. I saw Killian cover Thomas Camelleri's track for the first time. I thought his Montparnasse was OK - seemed to be lacking the necessary creepiness - but I did love the way he was spying on Eponine and Marius in Look Down/Robbery. And I got to see him in a shiny vest - it wasn�t the vest of doom, but it�s close! It was also the first time that I'd seen Helen Owen as Eponine. I thought she was a lovely understudy - but I don't think she really added much to the role. I missed Nancy's passion, though - the girl really wears her heart on her sleeve. Still, it was interesting and Helen was by far better than the Tour Eponine. I would love to see Helen on as Cosette. I remember Eppie-Sue saying that she was really quite impressive in that role. Special mention to Simon Shorten tonight. He was fabulous! His Bamatabois was so so very camp! And he did this thing at the beginning of Red and Black where he grabbed Anthony Hansen by the head, dragged him half on to his lap, and gave him a big kiss on the head (he seamed to apologize to him for this after the song) I have never seen him do that before - it was hilarious!! Poor Anthony looked rather helpless and a little embarrassed ! I totally lost it and was still giggling into David's sitting-down-intense opening lines of R&B. I'm sure I looked insane laughing at what seemed to be a very un-funny moment! BTW there was quite a bit of Epicjolras tonight. The LiD and Final Battle were particularly impressive. I was sad not to be sitting in the BB20ish seats as there seemed to be some great adlibbing with Killian during Little People. What else? Alastair and Rebecca were both really moving. They give very solid performances every time. And I am really loving Martin's Grantaire. I am please to say that now because I was not a huge fan in the beginning. But I just love how he is always watching Enjolras - and how he stands up when Thaxton does when they are giving their "First Warning". He just does it all really subtly, but it's all made of win. I prefer him to Jefftaire, too. Oh, and I have found that I quite like the way Bowman sings "Joy" in BHH. There, found something nice to say about him
@mm10 Don't be afraid of liking Bowman - I am afraid I really can't agree but I respect your opinion, but good on you for standing up for what you think!. I am glad that someone is liking his JVJ. I can see why you might like him if you like JOJ - they do both seem to go on the epic/OTT side with their portrayal of the character. I don't know if you have seen Williams - but it's worth it even for the comparison. And, yes, you can still like Bowman more even after that! btw I don't think many, if anyone, on here wanted Williams in the role when Shannon left. Not that it matters, but I thought it was worth mentioning that I don't think the dislike of him is linked to that. ETA - I just read Eppie-Sues post which appeared on here while I was typing. Just realised how similar they are - I didn't copy, I swear!
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| beyondthebarricade |
Just to give my 2 cents worth:
mm10: To reiterate what l'ivrogne transfigur� said, no one is going to hold a grudge against you for liking Simon Bowman's performance. It's heartening to see that some people do appreciate his JVJ, and it doesn't matter which cast member you actually prefer, as long as there's a valid reason behind it we'll respect you for stating what you believe. But it's just annoying when someone doesn't give any reasons and simply slams an actor. There could be many reasons why someone would do something like that, and what they say isn't going to be taken seriously at all if they just come up with one-liners and expect people to believe them. Belladonnadarling, perhaps if you'd actually justify your attacks on people who critise Bowman & HPJ (like why you don't agree with them, or what you liked about those principals) you would be taken seriously. And just for the record, personal attacks don't work very well too. As for Bowman, he must have had some standard to be chosen out of the lot to play JVJ. And this isn't his first time playing Valjean either. It's just that some people may disagree with his portrayal of the character, which is fine. It boils down to, again, personal preference. I'm sure he doesn't strut into every performance with this "Look, I'm boss and I'll do whatever I want" attitude. At least, I hope he doesn't. I actually have somemore to say, but I'll stop here as I'm doing this on an iPod and I really can't stand the sound when you touch a key. |
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| Eponines_Hat |
Cammack seems to really like going with established names - either people you will recognise through their previous West End successes; or through being on TV. I could be wrong, but I have the feeling that if it was down to an 'unknown' like Jeff Nicholson or HPJ for Javert, then he'll go the big name every time. (That said, I think Jeff's Javert wasn't that impressive initially, but has really developed nicely) I'd love to see him put someone really talented and 'up and coming' (*cough* Killian Donnelly) in a major role. He must have taken a gamble and discovered people before (JOJ?) Les Mis should be leading the way, not waiting for people to do their time in Phantom and other shows first IMO.
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| Eppie-Sue |
To give this whole "Why were they cast instead of..." dilemma a different approach which, I think, has been brought up here already and which seems more likely to me.
When David Shannon and Earl Carpenter left, the directors and producers knew they had to get new cast members. Their choice was between: Two Les Mis "veterans" who, having played the role before, would hopefully not need much time to settle in, or two new ensemble members who would fill the spots of Jonathan Williams and Jeff Nicholson (or one of them, respectively). Now, Jonathan might "only" be credited as 'Lesgle', but in reality he is far more valuable for the production: He is an excellent, secure understudy for the leading role, he is second cover for the Factory Foreman, he could play Enjolras if the other three were all off (and would do so), he could play the Pimp as he has done so last year, he could play Prouvaire as he has done so years ago, and when lots of people were off in January he did several parts in the ensemble (small roles that, nonetheless, have to be covered and have to know what the blocking is) like the second traveller, etc. He would be incredibly hard to replace. Same goes for Jeff - he's not only Factory Foreman and Brujon, he is first understudy for Javert and Grantaire, and he, too, has a lot of Les Mis experience and is a strong ensemble member. They are two of the most valuable cast members, actually, and two of the most experienced (among, I believe, David, who is in his fourth year, and George, Rebecca and Emily, in their third), so they know the show, can cover smaller parts if needed and deliver a great performance re: acting and voice. I can understand why, under these circumstances, it's the easier option to cast two new leads who have experience in these roles from years before. It is, of course, not only understable, but, sadly, also quite lazy, come to think of it. I don't like it, I think both of them would have deserved to take over, not because they're my favourites (they aren't), but because they're amazing and have understudied for quite some time (especially in Jeff's case). That said, (given that they want) it would be a shame if not at least one of them gets cast in June for the next season. I'd love to see that and I hope it happens. |
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| flying_pigs |
Totally agree with Eppie-Sue about how valuable JW and JN are, they're ensemble veterans. But at the end of the day, I think many of us believe that Jonathan and Jeff are perhaps better than Simon and HPJ and would love to have seen them promoted at the mini cast change last October. As it were, they were cast aside for two who have been in Les Mis a lot and have played various roles. Hardly keeping the production fresh. It's not that Simon and HPJ are bad, on the contrary, I have enjoyed their performances. But I think it's time to stop recycling proven leads and give chances to understudies and unknowns that audience members would love. | ||||||
| Eppie-Sue |
Agreed. Especially seeing as that has worked out with others of the cast. David, Emily and Rebecca were all understudies for their roles before and I don't think taking the "risk" of promoting them/casting them as principal upon their return to Les Mis has proven as a mistake in their cases. Of course it's another thing if we're talking about casting the leading roles, but especially Jonathan has gotten a lot of praise from the very beginning of his time as u/s Valjean (for Sarich in mid-2008) on. It's not that much of a risk, really... You know he can do it, you know he wants it, the audience loves him. As audition/casting season is definitely starting again at the Queen's, I hope this will play a part now, not just for them but for others who might get promotions/extension of their contracts as well... | ||||||
| riverdawn |
If we're already having this discussion, I do think that the whole "big names" idea is somewhat problematic.
I could be entirely wrong about this, but my sense is that the majority of people who go to see Les Mis (and shows like it) in London are not hard-core musical theater fans who would have heard of Simon Bowman or Hans Peter Janssens or some of these other "names" (I know I certainly never heard of them until I got into LM). I'm pretty sure that most of the people who fill out the Queen's theater every night are tourists (from within the UK or without it) who see going to West End theater as part of the London experience. A lot of them probably get to see the show roughly the same way I first saw it: they go to one of the discount tickets booths and say "hm... what do I feel like seeing tonight? Well, I guess I've never seen Les Mis before, I'll go do that then." Of course some of the audience is always going to be comprised of either regular fans of LM or people who are musical theater fans in general and might come to the show to see one of their favorites perform. But I'm pretty sure that most of the people in the audience have no idea who is going to perform a specific part in the show before they've seen it - and probably most of them leave the theater still without knowing who performed the part (as I said earlier - I haven't a clue who was on as Valjean, or as a Javert, the first time I saw the show). All this being said, then, I think it would be kind of strange if casting choices were made based on things like "big name" recognition - when we are talking about names that are primarily "big" within the musical theater community. If we were talking about casting some pop star or something in the role, then I'd think "ok, they're going to put that name up on posters around London and hope that makes more people see the show"... but when we're talking about casting someone like Bowman or HPJ, who probably mean absolutely nothing to the majority of people who go and see West End theater, I'm pretty sure it's more a matter of what Eppie-Sue said: these are people who have been on the show before, who can get back into the role quickly and whom the producers are fairly certain will be able to do the job well and leave most of the audience happy. Which, to be absolutely fair to Bowman and to HPJ - they do. I may have some qualms about specific aspects of their performance, but I've seen the show a few times now. But I've gone with friends and I've talked to people in the audience who are seeing the show for the first time - and they are always quite impressed by Bowman and especially by HPJ. This may not work out great for LM regulars who like to see specific roles acted in a specific way, but it seems to be working out fine for the producers and for many if not most of the people in the audience. |
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| MajorTordoArthur |
To respond to the criticism thing, I must say that I REALLY REALLY love HPJ's interpretation of Javert, but never for a moment have I thought about offending/shooting down anyone who criticises him. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, if that opinion is that you love the understudies more, then others should respect that. I prefer a lot of the understudies, only for Javert I consider HPJ perfect, and he will always be my favorite, I think. | ||||||
| Orestes Fasting |
More random thoughts on casting:
Les Mis is an incredibly incestuous show. I quote one of the ensemble members who left the Broadway revival halfway through the run: "Yeah, well, I'm sure you'll see me again. Les Mis is like the Hotel California, you can end your contract any time you like but you never really leave." I'm not sure this is quite as true for the London production, but in the US productions there was an overwhelming tendency to either promote understudies or hire people who'd already been in the show for the lead roles. Ensemble members were often fresh faces, but at least half the lead roles were usually people with Les Mis experience. So I don't think the London casting people were necessarily going for big names as Valjean and Javert, but they were probably looking for people with a looooong history in the show. A production that hires Michael McCarthy or Rob Hunt as Javert doesn't necessarily expect the audience to recognize him and go because of that, but I guess there's a certain cachet in being able to say "Yeah, our guy has been doing Les Mis off and on since nineteen ninety-mumble, he knows what he's doing." In this case it was to the detriment of that other means of getting experienced leads, promoting understudies. But the London production has been--pardon my French--absolutely shit about promoting understudies lately. The current cast has three leads who used to be understudies, which is way more than the past couple of casts, so maybe they thought promoting Jonathan Williams and Jeff Nicholson would be too much or something. |
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| beyondthebarricade |
Yeah, but then I would have to close the Safari application to go into Settings, and I'm paranoid that I may lose all the text that I've written so far, as it happened to me once. Not a pretty feeling.
And no one takes any offense at that, because you're allowed to prefer any cast member to the next. As long as you have your own reasons it's perfectly fine. And it's good to have a variety of opinions too, apart from Thacko, or else this would turn into some conformity convention. As for Cammack using more experienced actors for JVJ/Javert, I think he's just trying to play safe. Like he's afraid that Jonathan or Jeff will screw up just because they haven't acted in this and that play before. Which is rubbish, because if you keep giving roles to the actors who have already got so many roles behind them, where's the new talent going to come from? Which may cause some excellent singers to fade unnoticed. Besides, everyone needs to start somewhere. A producer needs to be brave and put a brilliant understudy up as principal instead of just leaving the job to another producer. |
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| Eppie-Sue |
Um. I don't believe anyone thinks Jeff or Jonathan might screw up. They have promoted three understudies to principals recently, that's quite a huge step for London Les Mis, as Orestes has said. And they have made some good decisions in casting before, with this cast, with the last casts, regarding new talent and unknown actors. I think the possible reasons for the way things went down in October have been named. It's not the first time that excellent understudies have been overlooked, but even if it's a shame and positively ridiculous in our eyes, the reasons are multi-faceted, I'm sure.
Also, I hadn't realised we were now referring to cast members by their nicknames. |
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| mm10 |
I am surprised to hear comments about JOJ as I thought he was considered to be �the best� by everyone � after all he is doing the new recording - so yes on reflection maybe I do like that type of Valjean � I think subtle is lost on me! I was already a fan of the show long before I saw JOJ but he brought something more to it for me that reawakened my love of the show and my only criticism of him at that time was probably that he was too young. (Although I�ve been following him on Twitter and get the impression he is a bit full of himself.) I saw SB by chance in 2004 as he was only filling in for 2 or 3 weeks, but I did know who he was so I don�t know if that influenced my opinion of him but I did enjoy his performance more than JOJ and as I said before I think this was solely because he was older. So for me his return is long overdue. I would be curious to see Williams though as I can't comment on his performance until I do.
I do feel that a lot of the interest in Les Mis at the minute is down to Subo and the �Dream the dream� marketing which is no bad thing if it is selling seats and ensures the production can continue for another few years. The casting people have tried to appeal to the masses with the likes of Jon Lee (and Gareth Gates) but as you say I don�t think that can said of SB or HPJ. |
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| Eponines_Hat |
Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking JOJ. I thought he was very good. As I said on the tour thread, I don't see why there is such obsession with him, but he is a lovely JVJ. He just isn't quite as subtle as Williams or Shannon IMO. That's not meant to be a criticism. I think that, for example, Mark adn David play Enjolras in very different ways, but I enjoy both.
I hadn't thought of this before, and yes, I can see that this is probably what they were thinking. It's a shame, but I can see how it would make sense. That said, there does seem to be a real preference for reality tv stars in many West End shows at the moment (Wicked, Ave Q and Les Mis to name a few). I'm not for one minute suggesting that these people don't deserve the part - I absolutely adore Nancy, Katie Hall, Anthony, and Daniel Boys in Ave Q - but it does make me wonder. I mean, not to detract from his performance because I thought he was quite good , but it does make me curious whether Gareth Gates being well known kinda helped with the casting decision. It did seem to be a major advertising focus there for a while. And if they are trying to get new, younger fans in, then it makes sense why shows might lean towards this sort of thing. I dunno - I am probably a bit biased because I actually think "reality" television shows in general are a parasitical blight on humanity. I guess it is nice that these shows have helped to discover some new talent! And we have got some great Mizzies out of it. But if Subo ever ends up on that stage, I am leaving and never coming back. |
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| belladonnadarling |
oneI have read the reactions with some interest.First of all I only read these messages on occasion so don't shoot me if I don't react instantly on any of the 'attacks'. Frankly ..... I don't see what the problem is. I have stated what I prefer and I have explained why. My initial reaction was to a statement where somebody found it strange that VJ was applauded after 'who am I' even if he didn't sing a high note on 'one'. As if the performance depends on that note which was especially put in for Colm Wilkinson anyway. |
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| riverdawn |
Ermm... just to be clear. I did not actually say that it was "strange" that he got applause at the part. My exact words were:
"and he got applause at the end of "Who am I?" - despite not even trying for the ONNNEE. " I noted the applause after "Who am I?" because they are quite unusual. The audience does not usually applaud after that particular scene. So I felt it was interesting to report that there was an applause after that scene. And as I was already talking about that scene, I wanted to mention that he had not gone for the high note because just a few days earlier we were talking about how beautifully Simon Shorten sang that particular note. I was contrasting two performances I had recently seen, that's all. If you (or anyone else) read that line as though I were saying "God, that stupid audience, why did they applaud when he didn't even hit that note?!" Then I apologize. That was certainly not my intent. I was just putting together two distinct thoughts about the same scene: that he got applause when these are unusual, and that he didn't sing the high note as some others do. At any rate, I hardly think that the entire performance of that song depends on that one note. In fact, the part of that song that I like most is the "if I speak, I am condemned, if I stay silent, I am damned" part. |
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| Eppie-Sue |
Re:
Doesn't matter why it was put in, it's part of the score, and if someone gets cast over a lot of others and then fails to deliver it, I'm disappointed, as it is a poignant moment. Normally, I don't think "Who Am I?" should get applause at all, and usually people don't applaud, because the high note doesn't really give it the well-rounded ending you get with a lower note, it's tenser (which it should be) and it doesn't close the scene in a way. I am just very put off when people applaud because the lower note that Simon Bowman settles for makes it sound like the proper ending to a solo (and he can hold and belt that note longer, quite effortlessly), when everyone who actually takes the risk and goes for the note in the score and has the range and vocal strength to do so doesn't get a reaction. That said, if Simon Bowman sang a beautiful Who Am I? with great dynamics, then maybe I'd think differently about it. Sadly, IMHO, he doesn't. Regarding JOJ - I'm not sure about the "epic" thing being the opposite of "subtle", as I think you can deliver impressive, stunning performances without losing sense of subtle touches and characterisations. People are going to roll their eyes now, but when I call David Thaxton's Enjolras "epic", I am never thinking "over the top" in any way, as there is a depth and subtlety to the character and the performance that is beautiful (especially this year), and it takes a great deal to give a character like Enjolras this depth as you don't get anything to work with, technically, they put you on that stage and you can be GI Joe eight times a week and most people are not going to complain. It's completely different with Valjean, obviously, because Valjan is given so, so much to work with, which is why I think it's not comparable. I don't get the JOJ hype because I didn't think he was outstanding or did something interesting with the role, gave it some kind of profile or character. Maybe he was many people's first Valjean, and, giving a great performance, instantly became their favourite - it happens with lots of other actors and roles, too - or I have just missed something about him, but I thought the gestures in BHH were too much, the beginning of the Soliloquy bordered on overacting and apart from that, there was nothing that he brought to the stage that gave me any extraordinary insight to the character, he didn't actually change much about Valjean throughout the performance. It's just a personal opinion, though, and maybe he was different a few years ago, maybe it was the tour, that make me not quite grasp the "epicness", maybe he was holding back (vocally, too), as it was a matinee, I don't know. I think what made me go "Huh" after I had seen him was the fact that I think I have seen great Valjeans on the London stage and didn't think JOJ was that much better to justify the immense hype about how he easily is the best Valjean ever and all that. I also don't want this to become a discussion about JOJ and about how people expect too much after having heard a lot of praise regarding certain performers, this was just to clear that up. Phiu. |
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| Eponines_Hat |
I don't think anyone should let belladonnadarling's post worry them or upset them. It's all rather boring. I really don't think it's worth further comment. (though I do appreciate the irony on commenting on this....)
As for the OOOONNNNEEE..... I wonder if it was Cosette or Eponine changing a pretty key note because they couldn't hit it, how would people feel? Pretty disappointed, I'd imagine, and I think I would be too. I suspect there would be a lot of criticism. There are some restrictions in doing a show like Les Mis - costumes, some of the blocking. As Eppie-Sue said, if its in the score, than it should stay. Besides, I like the way that it echoes the high "Fllllliiiight", highlighting how Valjean much Valjean has changed. For me, not only does the low note jar, but it just adds to the "smug JVJ" that some people on here have commented in. His "Who am I?" sometimes feels like Bowman's coming in to save the day and be the hero and belting the ONNNNNEE just seems to add to that idea. |
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| flying_pigs |
I think the outcome of this is that we all have our favourite Valjean's. So we should all just agree to disagree!
For what it's worth, JOJ is still my favourite!
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| mm10 |
I think I did mention this before but this is a mystery to me - I really don't think it is because he can't hit it - maybe his voice isn't 100% at the moment. (I know I'm making excuses for him again ) Is it better to go for it and miss it or not go for it all - which would be more noticable to the audience? Has it always been like this or did he do it at the start and has stopped doing it?
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| Eppie-Sue |
He tried to go for the note for the first month, and, I hope nobody is offended by me saying this, it was quite bad. I'm almost glad he changed it to the lower note (even though I think it's cheap) because from what I can remember, he never hit the high not, it was pretty jarring... so, I prefer the current version to what he did until mid-November, but it's still disappointing. |
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| mm10 |
Thanks Eppie-Sue that's good to know. So its not that he just decided to do it differently but there obviously is a problem there. Wonder will he ever feel able to try it again | ||||||
| Eponines_Hat |
Oh yeah,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDFRqj-bL8I I had forgotten about that. Good on him for trying, though! |
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
I'd forgotten that he used to do that in a really weak falsetto. I definitely prefer the current version, although he went through a phase of belting the lower note for ages, right into Fantine's death, which I thought was rather OTT. | ||||||
| mm10 |
I was really worried there thought that was going to be a complete disaster but it wasn't that bad but yes there was no power behind it. Loved listening to it though - thank you
(Was that his first night?) |
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| Eponines_Hat |
Yes, I was expecting Blooper-reel territory, but it wasn't that bad. Just meh. I can see why he changed it. I believe at that point he had been playing the role for about a fortnight - I think he began on 14th Oct???? |
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| belladonnadarling |
Re:one continued
In my opinion both the high note (especially the high note even) and the low note on 'one' are typical examples of a proper musical 'well-rounded' ending to that solo (perfect in the harmony), so an applause is quite understandable. It's probably only because the music continues straight away in the next scene that audience tend not to dare breaking the action with an applause (unless somebody who knows the show gets the applause started). The end of 'what have I done' on the other hand is more an 'open end', there is no conclusion. People applaud because there is a short pause in the music and a scene change. |
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
Re:one continued
I think this is true. Whichever note he sings, it doesn't alter the cadence. I think that, if anything, it sounds more complete when he finishes on the tonic (the B). This also mirrors the previos 'I'm Jean Valjean'. I think the applause, or lack thereof, is more to do with the continuity of the music. |
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| Eppie-Sue |
Maybe it's just my perception then. But I've noticed that, when he started doing the lower note (B?), people were applauding far more regularly than they had for the high note, whoever it was sung by. | ||||||
| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
The lower note is an F#. The passage is in B major.
I know what you're getting at when you say it sounds more like a proper ending on the lower note, but at the same time I also think it sounds like less of an ending. I can't really explain it. I think that, musically, the top note rounds off the song properly, but maybe in terms of what is going on on the stage and plot-wise, it does increase that sense of incompleteness because of the tenseness and confrontational sort of scene. It's interesting that he seems to get more applause - maybe it's because anyone can belt a lower note better? Or perhaps, when Valjean's go for the B, the audience are in awe of them
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| belladonnadarling |
More recognition of the audience is understandable if the song ends on a well sung powerful note,be it high or low. It just needs a climax for the audience to feel comfortable to applaud. Hence my original comment: it doesn't need the high note, it needs a powerful note. |
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| Eppie-Sue |
But it's not about what it needs. It doesn't need anything - songs shouldn't be sung to get applause, they should be sung as it's appropriate for the song, moment and as it's in the score. It's not like he goes for the lower note because it's a new way of doing it or because it works better, he does it because he can't sing a powerful high note. Therefore, to me, it's an obvious flaw in his vocal performance. It automatically makes him look better than the weak falsetto ever did. So, in the end, it's serving the needs of the performer and not the wholeness of the musical. I don't even like Who Am I? applause, as it takes something away from the moment right before Fantine's Death... |
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| belladonnadarling |
I only replied to the fact that you noticed that there tends to be more applause when he sings the low note, and tried to explain why this probably is the case. A properly sung note is better than a note sung halfheartedly. Even if you know something was written differently in the score, the low note still works and that's what's important. |
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| riverdawn |
Yes, I have to agree with that. I think that, given the fact that Bowman has a hard time singing the high note in a powerful way - his choice to sing a more powerful low note is the correct choice. I think it is a preferable choice to insisting on trying to sing the high note and doing it poorly, both in terms of the overall piece and in turn of what the audience gets from it. So in terms of his choices as a performer singing that song, I think he is making the correct artistic choice and I can't fault him for that. All this being said, of course some people who know that the scene usually ends with a high note, and that some performers have successfully sung that high note well - are entitled to feel somewhat disappointed that the person currently singing that song is not someone who can easily reach that powerful high note. The two things are not mutually exclusive. |
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| Eppie-Sue |
So, because I mentioned how Jonathan and Jeff were among he most experienced Les Mis performers in the current cast, I was intrigued to actually look up in which year (not consecutive, but overall) everyone is.
Just to give you an idea (and it might not be completely irrelevant for cast change either) : Fifth-and-a-half year: HPJ Fourth year: David and Jonathan Third year: AJ, Emily, George, Jeff, Rebecca Second-and-a-half year: Greg, Simon B (might be his third, londonlesmis only puts up "unknown date 1986 - unknown date 1987") Second year: Brenda, Daniella, Gavin, Helen, Katy, Killian, Mark D, Mark H, Nancy, Simon S, Sophie aaaand the n00bs: Alistair, Antony, Chloe, Dylan, Joe, Laura, Lorraine, Martin B, Martin N, Natalie, Rachel, Thomas ta-dah. (68 years together, with ten of the cast making up half of it together already!) |
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| l'ivrogne transfigur� |
I just came across this audio of Sophie as Fantine. My God, her voice is beautiful! Desperately want to see her on. | ||||||
| flying_pigs |
Just to go back to the "Fliiiight" debate. Tim Godwin (understudy 2004-06) will always be one of my favourites:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nNEEXK1x0U 4th on list. Ignore JOJ there, that's a terrible "fliiiight" from him! |
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| Eppie-Sue |
Hm, JOJ's "flight" is not very impressive on any recording I've heard... there should be a new comparison between all the London Valjeans of the past two years, Sarich, Jonathan, Simon, Shannon, Bowman, Killian. Pretty sure Simon Shorten would completely OWN it. It might just be the most impressive part of his entire performance, it's bloody gorgeous.
Also... 
thought this might be exciting to actually see. And it's a sort of promise. Once I'm done with my history essay, I will review Killian's performance as Jean Valjean. Oh yes. |
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| MizzieFan |
Oh yes, Eppie-Sue, do so I think we all look forward to your review
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| Eppie-Sue |
I have to say something about the website, by the way. You really can't blame them for getting the names wrong sometimes, if THIS is what the understudy sheet said the other day...
Man, I'd pay a lot of money to see this... |
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| riverdawn |
Wow, I just nearly spewed Diet Coke all over my screen. That is HILARIOUS!
Plus, it now it's got my wheels thinking which cast members I would like to see in the roles of each other.... hmm... the possibilities... |
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| Eppie-Sue |
Killian <--> David
Natalie <--> Nancy Gavin <--> Martin N going by similar looks alone here. Not always, but when Gavin and Martin come on as Javert's assistants in the Prologue... or when Natalie is on as Fantine with the blond wig... or just at very random moments with Killian and David...
ETA: Greg and Gavin, however, don't even look remotely alike. |